Energy Life - Neil Tyson

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

Here is a video about Neil Tyson's views on whether life can exist as pure energy.

http://futurism.com/neil-de-grasse-tyson-on-whether-life-could-exist-as-pure-energy-video/

He seems to feel that it can exist though it will be amorphous.

Well...if we can accept matter that cannot be sensed at all through any of the five senses (Dark Matter)....and energy that cannot be sensed either but which pushes entire galaxies apart (Dark Energy)...... why not life that is amorphous? 

Cheers.

Sriram

[torridon]

Life is information patterns essentially, but information needs a medium to be enscribed on; the life we are familiar with is encoded on recycled carbon and there's probably no reason in principle why other mediums could not be used; but there must be some medium, you cannot encode information on nothing.

[Stranger]

As the quote from Mark Eichenlaub on the page points out: energy isn't stuff - you can't make things out of pure energy any more than you can make things out of pure momentum.

[Leonard James]

As the quote from Mark Eichenlaub on the page points out: energy isn't stuff - you can't make things out of pure energy any more than you can make things out of pure momentum.

Surely both momentum and energy are produced by 'stuff'.

[Stranger]

Surely both momentum and energy are produced by 'stuff'.

Both energy and momentum are attributes of stuff. You can't have just momentum or "pure momentum", you can only have something that has momentum. Similarly, you can't have just energy, just something that has energy.

[Bubbles]

I like the quote by Audrey Hepburn

"Nothing is impossible, the word itself says " I'm possible""

I'm open minded on it 

[Stranger]

I like the quote by Audrey Hepburn

"Nothing is impossible, the word itself says " I'm possible""

I'm open minded on it 

While I agree that there are few things that can be declared impossible, there are some. You can't make 2 + 2 = 38.4 because of the way the numbers and the concepts of addition and equality are defined. This is like that. The way in which science defines the term energy, means that it can't exist by itself.

[Bubbles]

While I agree that there are few things that can be declared impossible, there are some. You can't make 2 + 2 = 38.4 because of the way the numbers and the concepts of addition and equality are defined. This is like that. The way in which science defines the term energy, means that it can't exist by itself.

It probably is impossible. 

But they used to think life couldn't exist without oxygen, until they discovered volcanic vents that supported life without the things they considered vital.

Before the Big Bang, wouldn't there have been some form of energy in existence to have created the Big Bang in the first place?

Someone said, can't remember who, that energy couldn't be destroyed.

According to this it can't be created or destroyed

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/energy-can-neither-be-created-nor-destroyed/

We have another poster who comes in, now and again who seems to believe this energy is God.

Nicholas 

 

I have no idea if an energy life form is possible.

Not as far as we know, I guess   

[Leonard James]

Both energy and momentum are attributes of stuff. You can't have just momentum or "pure momentum", you can only have something that has momentum. Similarly, you can't have just energy, just something that has energy.

Quite! Momentum is stuff at rest or in motion, and energy is needed to alter either state.

[Sriram]

As the quote from Mark Eichenlaub on the page points out: energy isn't stuff - you can't make things out of pure energy any more than you can make things out of pure momentum.

But E=MC squared.  Energy can be derived from matter and vice versa. So....energy can exist by itself and not just as an attribute of matter. 

[Stranger]

It probably is impossible. 

But they used to think life couldn't exist without oxygen...

Saying that there might be life (or anything else) made of pure energy is like saying we might find a circle with a corner - it just doesn't make sense.

Would you suggest life made of pure temperature, or velocity? Pure energy is just as nonsensical.

I'm not making any statement about what life might be made of - we may find life that isn't made of matter and that has energy - I don't know - but whatever it is made of will not be called "energy" because the word already has a meaning.

I can confidently predict we won't find life made of irony for exactly the same reason that we won't find it made of energy.

As for energy not being created or destroyed - that is because energy is a number we can calculate that is conserved because the laws of nature don't change over time. In the same way, momentum is a number we can calculate that is conserved because the laws of nature don't change from place to place. See Noether’s Theorem:-

http://tinyurl.com/m9g36

[Stranger]

But E=MC squared.  Energy can be derived from matter and vice versa. So....energy can exist by itself and not just as an attribute of matter.

The M doesn't stand for matter, it stands for mass. Mass can't exist by itself, either.

[Sriram]

Life is information patterns essentially, but information needs a medium to be enscribed on; the life we are familiar with is encoded on recycled carbon and there's probably no reason in principle why other mediums could not be used; but there must be some medium, you cannot encode information on nothing.

You are just describing one form of life that you are familiar with.  That need not be the norm in all conditions and states.

Nobody had thought of Parallel Universes existing within inches of us. Now they do.  Nobody had thought of matter that couldn't be sensed at all. Now we do.

Thinking laterally is the norm now and even Tyson who is usually fairly conservative  seems to have thought out of the box. 

Life existing in some amorphous form is certainly possible. 

[Sriram]

The M doesn't stand for matter, it stands for mass. Mass can't exist by itself, either.

Yes....mass requires matter and its matter that gets converted to energy. Matter and Energy are interchangeable.

Light exists by itself and travels through the universe. Its not just an attribute of something. Its energy that's released in certain processes. Gamma Rays are energy, X-rays are energy. All EM radiation  is energy.  Maybe Gravity is too. 

And Dark Energy is probably just energy.

[Stranger]

Yes....mass requires matter and its matter that gets converted to energy. Matter and Energy are interchangeable.

No, they are not. Mass (an attribute of particles) can convert to energy (another attribute of particles).

Light exists by itself and travels through the universe. Its not just an attribute of something. Its energy that's released in certain processes. Gamma Rays are energy, X-rays are energy. All EM radiation  is energy.  Maybe Gravity s too.

Light, X-rays and gamma rays are not energy - they are electromagnetic radiation that has energy (photons that have energy).

[Sriram]

No, they are not. Mass (an attribute of particles) can convert to energy (another attribute of particles).
Light, X-rays and gamma rays are not energy - they are electromagnetic radiation that has energy (photons that have energy).

Matter IS ultimately Particles. And Particles are Energy.

Photons are just packets of energy. Its Quanta. They can be perceived both as particles and as waves. Its not some form of matter with some energy contained inside.

[Bubbles]

I was reading this article

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/brainwaves/why-life-does-not-really-exist/

Interestingly there is enough difficultly defining "life" let alone what form it could take.

🌹

[Stranger]

Matter IS ultimately Particles. And Particles are Energy.

Photons are just packets of energy. Its Quanta. They can be perceived both as particles and as waves. Its not some form of matter with some energy contained inside.

Drivel. Photons have energy, they also have spin (for example).

Even at school level, energy is defined as "the ability to do work" and you can't make things out of an ability.

Particles are not the ability to do work - they are not energy. Waves are not energy either - neither are quantum fields which is the best theory of matter we have.

[Sriram]

Drivel. Photons have energy, they also have spin (for example).

Even at school level, energy is defined as "the ability to do work" and you can't make things out of an ability.

Particles are not the ability to do work - they are not energy. Waves are not energy either - neither are quantum fields which is the best theory of matter we have.

Ok.... SKS.  I don't want to argue this further. Matter and energy are interchangeable.  Elementary Particles such as electrons can behave both as particles and as waves.  EM radiations are energy. 

You are still at the Simple Machines stage I see. Thanks & Cheers.

[Stranger]

I was reading this article

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/brainwaves/why-life-does-not-really-exist/

Interestingly there is enough difficultly defining "life" let alone what form it could take.

🌹

It is indeed very difficult to define life - but it can't be made out of irony, temperature, the colour blue or energy - 'cos they aren't things.

[Stranger]

OK Sriram , I guess if you want to remain in that state of scientific illiteracy, that's up to you.

However, those who are interested in science should note that

Matter and energy are interchangeable.

is drivel; Mass and energy are equivalent.

Elementary Particles such as electrons can behave both as particles and as waves.

is true, but

EM radiations are energy.

is drivel - they have energy.

[Stranger]

You are still at the Simple Machines stage I see. Thanks & Cheers.

Do let me know when you progress to that stage and perhaps we can continue to the more advanced stuff....

[Bubbles]

It is indeed very difficult to define life - but it can't be made out of irony, temperature, the colour blue or energy - 'cos they aren't things.

I was thinking more along the lines of elementals such as portrayed in games and other things ( including some beliefs ).

You sort of have Fire elementals with the ideas of Jinns.

That's sort of legend of a being made up of energy.

[Stranger]

I was thinking more along the lines of elementals such as portrayed in games and other things ( including some beliefs ).

You sort of have Fire elementals with the ideas of Jinns.

That's sort of legend of a being made up of energy.

Well, fire isn't energy either. I'm not actually making any statement at all about what sort of beings might exist - just that the scientific meaning of the word energy rules out things being made of it.

Perhaps there are things like Fire Elementals and Jinns out there (I don't know) but they won't be made of energy (or temperature or electric charge or acceleration or poetry or sarcasm....).

[Stranger]

For anybody interested, here is an article on the whole matter / energy misconception.

Matter and Energy: A False Dichotomy
http://tinyurl.com/lnc3oz3

"But for the moment, suffice it to say that energy is not itself an object.  An atom is an object; energy is not. Energy is something which objects can have, and groups of objects can have — a property of objects that characterizes their behavior and their relationships to one another."