Best evidence for healing through prayer

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

For those that believe that this can occur, what is your strongest example to support it?

[floo]

For those that believe that this can occur, what is your strongest example to support it?

I think prayer can have a placebo effect from time to time. There is no evidence any deity is on the end of a prayer line. But just supposing there was, why doesn't it respond positively to all prayers for healing, instead of very few? Wait for the excuses made on god's behalf!  

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

I think prayer can have a placebo effect from time to time. There is no evidence any deity is on the end of a prayer line. But just supposing there was, why doesn't it respond positively to all prayers for healing, instead of very few? Wait for the excuses made on god's behalf!

I think it certainly could have an effect in that sense. I wouldn't call it prayer but I sometimes do something similar when very stressed and it seems to work. Almost as if by talking to myself I can work things through.

I am interested in hearing about all kinds of examples though.

[floo]

I refer you to the prayer thread and Alan Burns prayer requests for his very unfortunate friend Becky.

That poor lady has been put through hell for many months now. When there is a little improvement in her condition god is praised to the skies, when her condition deteriorates god isn't blamed!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

For those that believe that this can occur, what is your strongest example to support it?

For the methodology to operate here there has to be prediction. That is Gods behaviour must be predictable.

Is anybody's behaviour that predictable? I think not.

A Christian approach to healing I would have thought is to be expectant but not have expectations.

Wholeness or healing in Christianity is in the relationship with God.

Conversations like this usually turn either to placebo effect,which can only , in methodological materialism be a scientific observation and not an ontological conclusion,or to amputation.

If God has made a universe essentially nature has a way which is acceptable to God and in which God only rarely intervenes in a way that majorly overturns that and that explains why we never see resurrections or limb restorations although a few are reported.

[floo]

For the methodology to operate here there has to be prediction. That is Gods behaviour must be predictable.

Is anybody's behaviour that predictable? I think not.

A Christian approach to healing I would have thought is to be expectant but not have expectations.

Wholeness or healing in Christianity is in the relationship with God.

Conversations like this usually turn either to placebo effect,which can only , in methodological materialism be a scientific observation and not an ontological conclusion,or to amputation.

If God has made a universe essentially nature has a way which is acceptable to God and in which God only rarely intervenes in a way that majorly overturns that and that explains why we never see resurrections or limb restorations although a few are reported.

God's behaviour might be acceptable to it, but it is totally unacceptable to any reasonable person!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

God's behaviour might be acceptable to it, but it is totally unacceptable to any reasonable person!

By whom you mean those who want to be resurrected and have limbs grow back and never have anything but ice cream?

[Gordon]

For the methodology to operate here there has to be prediction. That is Gods behaviour must be predictable.

Methodology, and the underlying theory, will involve limitations and constraints in terms of the details of the method used: such as what constitutes data, how these data are identified, recorded, measured etc - so how what method do you envisage would be suited to a predictable God? 

If God has made a universe essentially nature has a way which is acceptable to God and in which God only rarely intervenes in a way that majorly overturns that and that explains why we never see resurrections or limb restorations although a few are reported.

Citations required. In addition, are these reports reliable?

[Shaker]

For the methodology to operate here there has to be prediction. That is Gods behaviour must be predictable.

Is anybody's behaviour that predictable? I think not.

It would be if you're supposed to be the same yesterday, today and for ever

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

For the methodology to operate here there has to be prediction. That is Gods behaviour must be predictable.

Is anybody's behaviour that predictable? I think not.

A Christian approach to healing I would have thought is to be expectant but not have expectations.

Wholeness or healing in Christianity is in the relationship with God.

Conversations like this usually turn either to placebo effect,which can only , in methodological materialism be a scientific observation and not an ontological conclusion,or to amputation.

If God has made a universe essentially nature has a way which is acceptable to God and in which God only rarely intervenes in a way that majorly overturns that and that explains why we never see resurrections or limb restorations although a few are reported.

I'm afraid I don't quite understand the answer you have given, but a few thoughts.

In terms of methodology I don't see why the claim part healings by prayer are not amenable to the scientific method.  Either people who are prayed for get better or they don't.  I accept that the scientific method could not be used to understand any supernatural element but unless the claim itself is substantiated then this is a moot point anyway.

I take it by the rest of your post that you are sceptical that God intervenes in healing as a result of prayer. Seems to be what you are saying anyway. Therefore, do you think that praying is a way  to sort out your own internal thoughts and troubles in a similar way to what I suggested?

[Bubbles]

I have this theory. ( not in the scientific sense  )

I think that the brain is capable of all sorts of things sometimes, on an unconscious level.

It regulates our bodies and sometimes when a person is ill, everything can start packing up, kidneys etc.

The positive side is a cancer going into remission or the negative is one, being really aggressive.

Some people when the lose either a partner or a routine, it's like they give up on life, or an underlying condition takes off.

Prayer might influence the brain in some way in some people.

sometimes things appear to work and sometimes they don't.

Perhaps sometimes under some conditions, some people's bodies have an ability others don't. 

Whether you can curl your tongue or not is a genetic thing ( you either can or you can't)
Maybe the ability of the unconscious brain to heal the body, is also genetic.

The ones most noticeable are the ones considered untreatable.

It would explain why it is inconsistent.

Perhaps we need to know more about the brain and what it can do.

[Leonard James]

I have this theory. ( not in the scientific sense  )

I think that the brain is capable of all sorts of things sometimes, on an unconscious level.

It regulates our bodies and sometimes when a person is ill, everything can start packing up, kidneys etc.

The positive side is a cancer going into remission or the negative is one being really aggressive.

Some people when the lose either a partner or a routine, it's like they give up on life, or an underlying condition takes off.

Prayer might influence the brain in some way in some people.

sometimes things appear to work and sometimes they don't.

Perhaps sometimes under some conditions, some people's bodies have an ability others don't. 

Whether you can curl your tongue or not is a genetic thing ( you either can or you can't)
Maybe the ability of the unconscious brain to heal the body, is also genetic.

Everything we are is the result of our genes. Even the so-called nurture influence is entirely dependent on our genetic pattern.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It would be if you're supposed to be the same yesterday, today and for ever

Yes, God Is sovereign today, yesterday and tomorrow.

[wigginhall]

I think it certainly could have an effect in that sense. I wouldn't call it prayer but I sometimes do something similar when very stressed and it seems to work. Almost as if by talking to myself I can work things through.

I am interested in hearing about all kinds of examples though.

That reminds me of so-called 'self-talk' which some psychotherapists recommend, that is, having a dialogue with yourself, as you mention.   It does seem to work with some people, as does keeping a journal also.  It seems to enable us to connect with parts of ourselves which normally lie unconscious.    I don't mean 'lie' in the sense of deceit!   Some Jungians have developed it into quite a complicated set of techniques, and they do it with dreams as well, so-called 'active imagination'.   But you can do this with anything which strikes you in life, whether a dream or not.   

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Methodology, and the underlying theory, will involve limitations and constraints in terms of the details of the method used: such as what constitutes data, how these data are identified, recorded, measured etc - so how what method do you envisage would be suited to a predictable God? 

Citations required. In addition, are these reports reliable?

Yes I don't believe science can assess divine claims, and as the atheist Chomsky said it isn't very Good in the context of psychology and sociology either.

Other than that Gordon methodology is not ontology.

[floo]

I had a 'miracle' of sorts some years ago. My frozen shoulder, which had defied medical attention, was cured when I was persuaded to stand at the gate of our 'miracle' field belonging to our previous property! I am firmly of the opinion my body's own healing properties kicked in, responding to the pleasant vibes emanating from that field, no supernatural occurrence.

[Rhiannon]

It's interesting to consider what healing through prayer would prove. That god's a narcissistic wanker who only heals people in his cosy little gang? It would seem so.

Actually though it's only s particular kind of Christian that falls into that category.

[Shaker]

Yes, God Is sovereign today, yesterday and tomorrow.

... says you

[Shaker]

It's interesting to consider what healing through prayer would prove. That god's a narcissistic wanker who only heals people in his cosy little gang? It would seem so.

Not even then, if you've been following the prayer thread.

[Rhiannon]

Not even then, if you've been following the prayer thread.

Which actually hands God a get out of jail free card. Because Christians can claim God did what was 'needed' without actually showing noticeable favouritism.

[Shaker]

Indeed.

[floo]

It's interesting to consider what healing through prayer would prove. That god's a narcissistic wanker who only heals people in his cosy little gang? It would seem so.

Actually though it's only s particular kind of Christian that falls into that category.

But it doesn't always heal its own gang. When my husband, an atheist, was desperately ill, well meaning folk offered up prayers for him. At the same time a devout Christian friend of ours was very ill too, he died, my husband survived. Our friend's family was completely screwed up as his children were still fairly young!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Not even then, if you've been following the prayer thread.

Well that's certainly not a scientific approach Shaker.......and there may even be a wee bit of confirmation bias in there as well.
If you didn't have such caricature views you might reach the starting line of constructive conversation.

[Shaker]

But it doesn't always heal its own gang. When my husband, an atheist, was desperately ill, well meaning folk offered up prayers for him. At the same time a devout Christian friend of ours was very ill too, he died, my husband survived. Our friend's family was completely screwed up as his children were still fairly young!

Remember that theists with their hyperactive agency detection devices need to crowbar purpose and intentionality into the world at any cost, and so construct incredibly elaborate excuses of Byzantine proportions to 'explain' scenarios such as that which shore up their theism.

[Shaker]

Well that's certainly not a scientific approach Shaker.......and there may even be a wee bit of confirmation bias in there as well.

Feel free to explain - the only confirmation bias I see comes from the theists who have to explain away the manifest and at times abject failure of their prayers as part of some sort of bigger plan.