Biblical Translation

[Hope]

Quite commendable sentiments Gonners, we all share most of those thing with you, why the need for a man made and very unlikely Mr Magic anywhere in the background?

ippy

Is there a Mr Magic anywhere in the background?

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

SKoS, what do you mean by saying that God has a terrible communication problem?   Remember that he chose to come to the earth at a time when global communication was beginning to take off.  Suddenly, a message could travel from the western edge of Europe to the sub-continent with minimal problems.  Ironically, we are now at a point in time when a message can travel around the world in seconds.  The Gospel is being shared with probably more people each day than ever in history.

As you say we can communicate rapidly across the world now so would it not have been better to have come now instead of when he did, or to pop back now and clarify any mistranslations that have crept in over the past 2000 years?

I wonder why he doesn't.

[Sebastian Toe]

Well, it depends on whether you believe that humans are simply physical, or whether we have other aspects to our beings.  Interestingly, this is a Jewish story, and Christians take the lead in this from the Jews.  Interestingly, the Hebrew verb 'to die' used in the Genesis 2 passage you quote is somewhat different from that used by Eve in the Genesis 3 passage, suggesting that they are referring to different forms of death.

Lets look at one of your favourite modern up to date versions and see what it says then.
Should be fairly unambiguous you would think?

The Message;

2; 16-17 God commanded the Man, “You can eat from any tree in the garden, except from the Tree-of-Knowledge-of-Good-and-Evil. Don’t eat from it. The moment you eat from that tree, you’re dead.”

3; 2-3 The Woman said to the serpent, “Not at all. We can eat from the trees in the garden. It’s only about the tree in the middle of the garden that God said, ‘Don’t eat from it; don’t even touch it or you’ll die.’”


Two different 'deaths' there?

[ippy]

Dear ippy,

No need, if the Golden rule is so imprinted in your brain that you live your whole life by it, then this Mr Magic as you call him will be quite happy.

Gonnagle.

What Mr Magic Gonners?

ippy

[ippy]

SKoS, what do you mean by saying that God has a terrible communication problem?   Remember that he chose to come to the earth at a time when global communication was beginning to take off.  Suddenly, a message could travel from the western edge of Europe to the sub-continent with minimal problems.  Ironically, we are now at a point in time when a message can travel around the world in seconds.  The Gospel is being shared with probably more people each day than ever in history.

And ignoring it wholesale too, being irrelevant it mostly goes unnoticed.

ippy 

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

Firstly, you need to define what the non-natural phenomena is you are talking about. You did not identify one in you first post on the other thread.

I do not refuse to accept that the naturalistic physical approach is not the only way. I will change my view when presented with a different methodology. The only constraint I apply is that such a method should be able to differentiate between likely true and likely untrue claims.

So far you haven't presented a methodology though. 

Your evasion tactic consists of you insisting that people want your methodology to based on naturalistic methods, when I have never seen a single person do so.

This really is very simple. All we need is an example of a non-natural phenomena and a method for how you know it is a non- natural phenomena.

Bump

[Owlswing]

Not in the slightest. I do however take an admittedly malicious delight in revealing just how hopeless Hopeless is at answering questions

Surely I cannot be the only one who only reads his posts to see exactly what load of bovine and equine excrement he has tried to pass off as fact? Going by his performance on this forum he would make a damn good politician!

I have seen worms on a fishing hook that do not wriggle as much as Hope does when his stupidity and ignorance of the real world are pointed out to him!

[Shaker]

SKoS, what do you mean by saying that God has a terrible communication problem?

Exactly the same as what has been said to you several times before and which you have ducked, dodged evaded and ignored every single time - that a deity which you (presumably?) believe has powers sufficient to create a universe from nothing, perform miracles (amongst them the resurrection of corpses, etc.) cannot get its message across to humanity save by a nebulous collection of selectively-chosen (by biased and partial humans) documents which have to be translated from one language to another and in effect translated within the same language periodically in order to keep up with the evolution of language, then requiring "interpretation."

I ask you honestly: does that strike you as the work of omnipotence?

[Shaker]

I see your attack on my faith Rhi,

"People please!, everything OMW mentions in his posts can be challenged and also brought back to his attention on a later date and used in an argument. If he's gonna cry about it, he would do better finding a spine donor. If we have to tolerate his daily attacks then he will have to accept the same treatment with regards to himself and all he posts. Truth is he targets certain people for nothing but belittling comments. He never actually debates anything Sass posts for example. He just jumps in to make stupid, childish, infantile, stunted put downs. So he can stop the crocodile tears, I am not fooled."

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

Bump

Bumpety Bump Bump

[Stranger]

SKoS, what do you mean by saying that God has a terrible communication problem?   Remember that he chose to come to the earth at a time when global communication was beginning to take off.  Suddenly, a message could travel from the western edge of Europe to the sub-continent with minimal problems.  Ironically, we are now at a point in time when a message can travel around the world in seconds.  The Gospel is being shared with probably more people each day than ever in history.

What I mean is that there is no "The Gospel" to be shared. There is the bible - which is incoherent and self-contradictory and there is the even more incoherent and contradictory messages of those who claim to be following it, and then there are all the other supposed messages and books from other faiths.

If this is an attempt by a god to communicate clearly to its creation, then that god has serious communication issues...

[Owlswing]

"People please!, everything OMW mentions in his posts can be challenged and also brought back to his attention on a later date and used in an argument. If he's gonna cry about it, he would do better finding a spine donor. If we have to tolerate his daily attacks then he will have to accept the same treatment with regards to himself and all he posts. Truth is he targets certain people for nothing but belittling comments. He never actually debates anything Sass posts for example. He just jumps in to make stupid, childish, infantile, stunted put downs. So he can stop the crocodile tears, I am not fooled."

Spine transplant?

I would have said that he needs treatment for his reproductive organ problem, his intestinal problem AND his back problem, all of which can be treated by transplant - no balls, no guts and no spine!

He sits there sqwarking if we post anything we see as wrong with the US or Canada yet spends and awful lot of HIS time denigrating the UK and Europe.

Truly POT KETTLE BLACK!

This is why I no longer reply to him!

Oh and he IS a troll! 

[Hope]

What I mean is that there is no "The Gospel" to be shared. There is the bible - which is incoherent and self-contradictory and there is the even more incoherent and contradictory messages of those who claim to be following it, and then there are all the other supposed messages and books from other faiths.

If this is an attempt by a god to communicate clearly to its creation, then that god has serious communication issues...

Obviously, you are entitled to your opinion SKoS, but I think you will find that there a couple of billion of people worldwide who believe that there is a 'The Gospel' to be shared.  As for the Bible, which you claim is incoherent and self-contradictory - I suppose it depends on how you read it.  If you choose to read it as a series of unrelated sentences, then of course it appears to be self-contradictory; if you choose to read it as if it is a record of what happened last year - and read it through a filter of modern thinking, then it will obviously not make sense.

[Hope]

Lets look at one of your favourite modern up to date versions and see what it says then.
Should be fairly unambiguous you would think?

The Message;

2; 16-17 God commanded the Man, “You can eat from any tree in the garden, except from the Tree-of-Knowledge-of-Good-and-Evil. Don’t eat from it. The moment you eat from that tree, you’re dead.”

3; 2-3 The Woman said to the serpent, “Not at all. We can eat from the trees in the garden. It’s only about the tree in the middle of the garden that God said, ‘Don’t eat from it; don’t even touch it or you’ll die.’”


Two different 'deaths' there?

Seb. I've already dealt with these two pairs of verses, earlier in the thread. #44

[Shaker]

Obviously, you are entitled to your opinion SKoS, but I think you will find that there a couple of billion of people worldwide who believe that there is a 'The Gospel' to be shared.

Giving the argumentum ad populum/numerum an airing, I see ...

[Sebastian Toe]

Seb. I've already dealt with these two pairs of verses, earlier in the thread. #44

Does the depiction of the story as described in The Message version for those verses, accurately convey the true meaning?

[jeremyp]

Obviously, you are entitled to your opinion SKoS, but I think you will find that there a couple of billion of people worldwide who believe that there is a 'The Gospel' to be shared.

But they can't agree amongst themselves what it is. If they could, Christianity would not be split into so many different denominations.

[jeremyp]

Seb. I've already dealt with these two pairs of verses, earlier in the thread. #44

No you didn't. You applied Christian obfuscation to pretend that "die" means something other than "become dead".

[Bubbles]

"People please!, everything OMW mentions in his posts can be challenged and also brought back to his attention on a later date and used in an argument. If he's gonna cry about it, he would do better finding a spine donor. If we have to tolerate his daily attacks then he will have to accept the same treatment with regards to himself and all he posts. Truth is he targets certain people for nothing but belittling comments. He never actually debates anything Sass posts for example. He just jumps in to make stupid, childish, infantile, stunted put downs. So he can stop the crocodile tears, I am not fooled."

Oh come on, you all attack him. Stop making out it is all OMW.

Perhaps he doesn't disagree with Sass, but he doesn't have to, does he?

Oh yes I forgot, to be part of a clique, he has too.

I don't see any crocodile tears, just someone standing up for their beliefs when they are under attack.

If he attacked paganism like some of you attacked Christianity with personal insults, constantly and persistently, he would probably get banned.

If you dish it out, expect to get it back.

Both from Sass, OMW, Alan Burns and Hope. All those posters are attacked on a regular basis.

Sometimes they get far more than just criticism of their posts, but personal insults as well.

But let them dish it out, and their attackers feel hard done by.

It's tough! Innit!

[Brownie]

The death in Genesis refers to spiritual death, surely?  That is what I have always understood to be meant by the passages quoted from Genesis.  Both Adam and Eve lived to a great age so it wasn't physical death that was feared.

[jeremyp]

The death in Genesis refers to spiritual death, surely?

It doesn't say that, it just says "you will die".

That is what I have always understood to be meant by the passages quoted from Genesis.  Both Adam and Eve lived to a great age so it wasn't physical death that was feared.

Thanks for making my point for me. You redefined "death" to try to overcome the embarrassment of God being portrayed a liar.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

Firstly, you need to define what the non-natural phenomena is you are talking about. You did not identify one in you first post on the other thread.

I do not refuse to accept that the naturalistic physical approach is not the only way. I will change my view when presented with a different methodology. The only constraint I apply is that such a method should be able to differentiate between likely true and likely untrue claims.

So far you haven't presented a methodology though. 

Your evasion tactic consists of you insisting that people want your methodology to based on naturalistic methods, when I have never seen a single person do so.

This really is very simple. All we need is an example of a non-natural phenomena and a method for how you know it is a non- natural phenomena.

Any chance of an answer, or do you require further clarification of the question?

[Sassy]

It doesn't say that, it just says "you will die".
Thanks for making my point for me. You redefined "death" to try to overcome the embarrassment of God being portrayed a liar.

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

 Your confusing being told you will die with DROP DEAD INSTANTLY....

This verse might explain if you can actually be bothered to read the passage.

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Adam and Eve died because God took away their right to eat from the tree of life.
So Gods words came true. Eating from the tree meant they lost the right to eat from the tree of life.
They were sent from the Garden unable to eat from the tree of life and so died.

Just for confirmation they had the right to eat from the tree of life:-

8 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

It is Gods will that man might once again eat from the tree of life.

King James Bible
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

So God isn't a liar. You are not educated by way of the truth in the bible anyone could understand, had they bothered to read it.

[Brownie]

It doesn't say that, it just says "you will die".
Thanks for making my point for me. You redefined "death" to try to overcome the embarrassment of God being portrayed a liar.

I didn't feel any embarrassment jeremy, just said what I thought.  In Hebrew, ''death" and "die'' have more than one meaning - but I wasn't thinking of that when I wrote the above.   How can God be a liar if you don't believe in Him anyway?   People are liars.  People also often express things clumsily but the Genesis passages you quoted seem straightforward enough to me, unlike some other Biblical passages which take a lot of understanding.

None of this matters to you anyway, it's only of importance to those who believe in God.

[Stranger]

Obviously, you are entitled to your opinion SKoS, but I think you will find that there a couple of billion of people worldwide who believe that there is a 'The Gospel' to be shared.

There may well be but it's not like they all agree about what it is, is it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_by_number_of_members

As for the Bible, which you claim is incoherent and self-contradictory - I suppose it depends on how you read it.  If you choose to read it as a series of unrelated sentences, then of course it appears to be self-contradictory; if you choose to read it as if it is a record of what happened last year - and read it through a filter of modern thinking, then it will obviously not make sense.

I chose to read it to see what it said - something I wish Christians would do - rather than reading it to find the bits that confirm what they already 'know'.

As I said, no clear message.

If there really was a god that could communicate clearly, we wouldn't be having this discussion...