Author Topic: Biblical Translation  (Read 34597 times)

Hope

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Re: Biblical Translation
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2016, 09:54:29 PM »
Perhaps we could get back to the thread topic - the idea of translation. 
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Shaker

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Re: Biblical Translation
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2016, 09:55:10 PM »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Biblical Translation
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2016, 09:59:49 PM »
Not, it isn't just the typos, NS.  What, for instance, does " ... can you outline how a reader could determine between the two models, which are contradictory, that you are proposing, can be used by a reader since that posits a third model, contradictory to the other two?".  This is just a semi-random juxtapositioning of phrases that has no real meaning as it stands.

You posited societal 'control', and authorial 'control' of meaning separately in posts. You then covered in another post, the reader being able to determine meaning by means not available to either society or the author. Those are three models and they are contradictory. There is some elision in the sentence based on the context with earlier sentences, but then I am sure you would know that and realize that by quoting one sentence, as if it were not informed by context, and claiming you didn't understand it in isolation, would make you because of your earlier statements, a liar and a hypocrite.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Biblical Translation
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2016, 10:00:57 PM »
Perhaps we could get back to the thread topic - the idea of translation.
Your theory of translation is dependent on your theory of meaning.

Étienne d'Angleterre

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Re: Biblical Translation
« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2016, 07:42:49 AM »
As far as I'm aware, it is human socity that controls the development of language.  It is, partly, why legislation sometimes has to be updated in order to take such developments into account.  I suppose that if society decided to stop all language development, we could get away with using older translations.  At the same time, the transferring of concets across languages doesn't always work smoothly.  For instance, in the Nepalese Bible, there is no mention of the Lamb of God.  Why?  There are no sheep in Nepal.  Comparably, and away from the Bible, there are half a dozen words for snow in the global forms of English; there are probably a dozen (not the famed 300/100/50) in Inuit languages.

Well why doesn't he put in an appearance every few years to show us where we are going wrong? It's simple enough really.

Shaker

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Re: Biblical Translation
« Reply #30 on: March 15, 2016, 07:47:03 AM »
Well why doesn't he put in an appearance every few years to show us where we are going wrong? It's simple enough really.
Even simpler - why not just get it clear the first time?
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Étienne d'Angleterre

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Re: Biblical Translation
« Reply #31 on: March 15, 2016, 07:55:47 AM »
I started many months ago; you don't see the answers because I don't answer in the way that you think that your questioning style requires me to answer.  These attempts to make a person answer in the way you want them to is pretty standard debating technique, by the way.

That is a blatant untruth.

I have asked you very simple questions and you simply don't answer. You either evade or simply ignore.

Shaker

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Re: Biblical Translation
« Reply #32 on: March 15, 2016, 07:59:25 AM »
That is a blatant untruth.

I have asked you very simple questions and you simply don't answer. You either evade or simply ignore.
Ah. You noticed as well ::)
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Hope

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Re: Biblical Translation
« Reply #33 on: March 15, 2016, 08:25:13 AM »
That is a blatant untruth.

I have asked you very simple questions and you simply don't answer. You either evade or simply ignore.
I only evade the answer - in your opinion - because you disagree with what my responses are.  OK, I'm not on the siate all day and every day as some are, so I may have missed some questions - but I answer those I see.
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Shaker

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Re: Biblical Translation
« Reply #34 on: March 15, 2016, 08:28:39 AM »
I only evade the answer - in your opinion - because you disagree with what my responses are.  OK, I'm not on the siate all day and every day as some are, so I may have missed some questions - but I answer those I see.
Another arrant lie.
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Hope

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Re: Biblical Translation
« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2016, 08:28:45 AM »
Specify.
I could do so, I suppose, though many will no longer be available because of the necessity to cull unused threads.  Put simply, I'd suggest just about every thread that deals with this kind of issue that still exists on the board.  I accept that I haven't got involved in 100% of such threads, but I've visited a vast majority of them.
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Shaker

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Re: Biblical Translation
« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2016, 08:29:48 AM »
I could do so, I suppose, though many will no longer be available because of the necessity to cull unused threads.  Put simply, I'd suggest just about every thread that deals with this kind of issue that still exists on the board.  I accept that I haven't got involved in 100% of such threads, but I've visited a vast majority of them.
And have avoided and evaded every time.
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Hope

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Re: Biblical Translation
« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2016, 08:30:00 AM »
Another arrant lie.
You're entitled to your opinion, but you are also often wrong.
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Shaker

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Re: Biblical Translation
« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2016, 08:30:42 AM »
You're entitled to your opinion, but you are also often wrong.
Feel free to point out examples of such.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

jeremyp

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Re: Biblical Translation
« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2016, 08:43:37 AM »
Thanks for that, jeremy.  Remember that the problem with the AV/KJV is that it was based on material that was often a translation of a translation of a translation.  Since then, documents that predate that material has been found that provide a better understanding of the languages that the Bible was originally written in, with the result that more recent translations are closer to the original meanings.  We are still not exactly the same simply because there are ideas and concepts that simply don't transfer to English (indicating that the English language is by no means perfect). 
I don't know why you think any of the above is relevant to the point I was making.

Consider this, from Genesis 2:

"You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die."

That's the NRSV translation, not the KJV. It makes a clear unambiguous statement and it's God talking. Now consider this from Genesis 3:

"You will not die; for God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

That's the Serpent talking. It's another clear unambiguous statement. Now, who was telling the truth: God or the Serpent? As the story unfolds, it turns out that God was lying and the Serpent was telling the truth. Yet, we have Christians bending over backwards to find a meaning that doesn't cast God as the bad boy in this story. Usually, they redefine the word "day" or "die".

This happens all over the place, whenever the Bible says something they find embarrassing. Often they will even try to make a blanket pronouncement ("you can't understand the Bible unless you are filled with the Holy Spirit" or some other bullshit) to avoid the truth that their holy book doesn't say what they want it to say.

Quote
That is why reading the Bible as a whole is so important, as opposed to the way that some here (on both sides of the debate) like to cherry-pick a verse, or perhaps even a phrase within a verse to try to make a point.
The trouble is that the Bible was not written as a whole. It is a collection of many separate documents whose authors, in many cases, were not aware of the other documents that would end up in the collection.
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Re: Biblical Translation
« Reply #40 on: March 15, 2016, 08:53:35 AM »
I don't know why you think any of the above is relevant to the point I was making.

Consider this, from Genesis 2:

"You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die."

That's the NRSV translation, not the KJV. It makes a clear unambiguous statement and it's God talking. Now consider this from Genesis 3:

"You will not die; for God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

That's the Serpent talking. It's another clear unambiguous statement. Now, who was telling the truth: God or the Serpent? As the story unfolds, it turns out that God was lying and the Serpent was telling the truth. Yet, we have Christians bending over backwards to find a meaning that doesn't cast God as the bad boy in this story. Usually, they redefine the word "day" or "die".

This happens all over the place, whenever the Bible says something they find embarrassing. Often they will even try to make a blanket pronouncement ("you can't understand the Bible unless you are filled with the Holy Spirit" or some other bullshit) to avoid the truth that their holy book doesn't say what they want it to say.
The trouble is that the Bible was not written as a whole. It is a collection of many separate documents whose authors, in many cases, were not aware of the other documents that would end up in the collection.

I don't think it means God was lying, because I think those verses try and explain how death came into the world in the first place.
( like Pandora's box and all the pains of the world and hope ( not our Hope  ;) ) as compensation, think Greek/roman stories)
So in that sense God wouldn't have been lying by saying what he did, but neither was the serpent because originally years ago  the believers thought life was eternal. ( pre Apple)

They  ate the apple and became mortal, but they also became responsible because they knew the concepts of good and evil.

Later, according to legends there were still humans who supposedly lived longer than became normal.

Noah was also supposed to have had a longer lifespan, as did Methuselah.

https://answersingenesis.org/bible-timeline/genealogy/did-adam-and-noah-really-live-over-900-years/

However if God was supposed to have made them in his image in the first place, and that means knowing the difference between good and bad, what was the point of the story about the tree, in the first place?
« Last Edit: March 15, 2016, 09:04:55 AM by Rose »

Hope

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Re: Biblical Translation
« Reply #41 on: March 15, 2016, 08:57:41 AM »
You posited societal 'control', and authorial 'control' of meaning separately in posts. You then covered in another post, the reader being able to determine meaning by means not available to either society or the author. Those are three models and they are contradictory. There is some elision in the sentence based on the context with earlier sentences, but then I am sure you would know that and realize that by quoting one sentence, as if it were not informed by context, and claiming you didn't understand it in isolation, would make you because of your earlier statements, a liar and a hypocrite.
NS, the piece I quoted was just one of several phrases/part sentences/etc that I could have guessed the meaning of, but then I might have guessed wrong.  I preferred to get the clarification.

As regards the suggestion that I posited "societal 'control', and authorial 'control' of meaning" separately, there is, to a large extent some cross-over.  For instance, a writer such as Charles Dickens had a number of meanings tied up in the language of his novels - both within a single novel and across the body of his work.  Different people would have taken different messages and ideas from the material.  So, yes, the author has some control of the meaning.  The same applies to the Bible.  For instance, the 4 Gospel writers and writers like Paul wrote for different audiences; it was only later, when the various documents were gathered together, that they became available to be read by other audiences - and at this point in time statements targetted at specific situations began to be principle-ised.  You could argue that society - in the sense of the Christian community - began to impose meanings that might not have been there in the original writing.

Then, we have the way in which society develops language over time, such that a word changes its meaning over a period of time.  I used the examples of 'wicked' and 'bad' in a previous post.  If society didn't want to allow such changes to take place, it can quite easily refuse to include them in a reference book of word meanings - see the French attempt to ban the term 'le weekend'.

So, there is nothing contradictory about both 'authorial' and 'societal' control being at work.

You then suggest that there is a third concept - that of "the reader being able to determine meaning by means not available to either society or the author."  I assume, by this, you are referring to reading within context.  So, to return to my example oif Charles Dickens; a youngster reading a Dickens novel today may find it interesting, but unless that reader has an understanding of the historical context that Dickens was writing about and into, they will never fully understand the extent of Dickens' intentions and message.

None of these three 'controls' are contradictory; they all play a part in our understanding of written material.  Even modern novels have to be understood in the context of the story: if you or I read a novel about life in - say - a rural village in Mid-Wales, we will only pick up parts of the meaning unless we know the cultural and historical context of the setting pretty well.  As such novels and even histories can have a variety of different menings, for different people.
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Étienne d'Angleterre

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Re: Biblical Translation
« Reply #42 on: March 15, 2016, 09:10:47 AM »
I only evade the answer - in your opinion - because you disagree with what my responses are.  OK, I'm not on the siate all day and every day as some are, so I may have missed some questions - but I answer those I see.

Please show me were on the "Put me out of misery thread"

1) You identified a non-naturalist aspect of life.

2) A methodology where you can assess it's non-naturalness.


Owlswing

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Re: Biblical Translation
« Reply #43 on: March 15, 2016, 09:12:48 AM »

Another thtread flounders upon the rocks of Hope's willingness to spout any amount and form of total bollocks in a attempt to justify or explain the unjustifiable and inexplicable in Christian thinking, is there such a thing as a thinking Christian seeing as they seem to allow their "god" and their bible to do their thinking for them!.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

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Hope

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Re: Biblical Translation
« Reply #44 on: March 15, 2016, 09:17:19 AM »
Now, who was telling the truth: God or the Serpent? As the story unfolds, it turns out that God was lying and the Serpent was telling the truth. Yet, we have Christians bending over backwards to find a meaning that doesn't cast God as the bad boy in this story. Usually, they redefine the word "day" or "die".
Well, it depends on whether you believe that humans are simply physical, or whether we have other aspects to our beings.  Interestingly, this is a Jewish story, and Christians take the lead in this from the Jews.  Interestingly, the Hebrew verb 'to die' used in the Genesis 2 passage you quote is somewhat different from that used by Eve in the Genesis 3 passage, suggesting that they are referring to different forms of death.

Quote
This happens all over the place, whenever the Bible says something they find embarrassing.
I think that my reference above points to your comment being less than truthful.

I accept that English isn't always as flexible and nuanced as Hebrew and even Koine Greek, but that is partly why using publically available sources to study the material is so important. 

Quote
... to avoid the truth that their holy book doesn't say what they want it to say.
Whereas people like you seem to believe that specific versions of the material - in English - are the only valid ones.

Quote
The trouble is that the Bible was not written as a whole. It is a collection of many separate documents whose authors, in many cases, were not aware of the other documents that would end up in the collection.
Whilst there is an element of truth in that, jeremy, the later authors, especially when it coes to the Hebrew Scriptures, would have known a lot about those matereials that came before theirs.  As for the New Testament, much would seem to have come from the same sources with basically only the Pauline material being separate from those sources.
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Hope

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Re: Biblical Translation
« Reply #45 on: March 15, 2016, 09:18:19 AM »
Another thtread flounders upon the rocks of Hope's willingness to spout any amount and form of total bollocks in a attempt to justify or explain the unjustifiable and inexplicable in Christian thinking, is there such a thing as a thinking Christian seeing as they seem to allow their "god" and their bible to do their thinking for them!.
I'm sorry Owl, that I'm not able to provide you with the answers that you want to hear, and feel is my duty to provide.  It's all to do with something called debate.
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Shaker

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Re: Biblical Translation
« Reply #46 on: March 15, 2016, 09:19:23 AM »
Well, it depends on whether you believe that humans are simply physical, or whether we have other aspects to our beings.
You could always cough with some evidence of these 'other aspects', of course ...
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Hope

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Re: Biblical Translation
« Reply #47 on: March 15, 2016, 09:22:31 AM »
Later, according to legends there were still humans who supposedly lived longer than became normal.

Noah was also supposed to have had a longer lifespan, as did Methuselah.
And as an aside, many people today live longer than had become 'normal'.  I've been told by a doctor  acquaintance that by the end of this century, living to be 150 could become quite common.
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Hope

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Re: Biblical Translation
« Reply #48 on: March 15, 2016, 09:24:59 AM »
You could always cough with some evidence of these 'other aspects', of course ...
And you could always decide that purely physical evidence isn't the only way to discover reality.  As I've said before, that is the stumbling block.  Your insistence on there only being one acceptable form or definition of evidence means that you can't (or should that be 'won't') see beyond it.
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jeremyp

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Re: Biblical Translation
« Reply #49 on: March 15, 2016, 09:28:10 AM »
I don't think it means God was lying, because I think those verses try and explain how death came into the world in the first place.
( like Pandora's box and all the pains of the world and hope ( not our Hope  ;) ) as compensation, think Greek/roman stories)
So in that sense God wouldn't have been lying by saying what he did, but neither was the serpent because originally years ago  the believers thought life was eternal. ( pre Apple)

And Rose immediately provides evidence to support my point.

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