Biblical Translation

[Shaker]

If there really was a god that could communicate clearly, we wouldn't be having this discussion...

And that's the central point that Hope won't touch with a bargepole.

[Hope]

And that's the central point that Hope won't touch with a bargepole.

And of course, just about every post I make touches pretty firmly on that central point - but you just don't like the answer, Shaker, because you don't want to accept that God works through his followers.

[Shaker]

And of course, just about every post I make touches pretty firmly on that central point

No they don't - that's either a lie or delusion on your part. Nowhere have I seen you address the points raised in various places and collated in #11 on page 1 of this thread, just the same as you continually dodge what methodology you think you have for evaluating your claims about other alleged realms of reality.

but you just don't like the answer, Shaker, because you don't want to accept that God works through his followers.

How do you propose to back up your assertion of a god working through its followers as compared to no god and only a few people who believe in such a thing?

[Gordon]

And of course, just about every post I make touches pretty firmly on that central point - but you just don't like the answer, Shaker, because you don't want to accept that God works through his followers.

Which doesn't really help matters, since there are so many of them and since they don't all agree - sounds to me like your God could do with a review of its communication strategy (such as by having one).

Of course all these 'followers' could be barking up the wrong tree.

[Stranger]

And that's the central point that Hope won't touch with a bargepole.

And of course, just about every post I make touches pretty firmly on that central point - but you just don't like the answer, Shaker, because you don't want to accept that God works through his followers.

No matter how you think this god of your works, the fact remains that if there was a god who was both able and willing to communicate clearly to us, we would all agree as to what the message was (even if we didn't like it).

As it is there are just a lot of groups of religious people in the world who disagree with each other.

If there is a god, either it doesn't want to communicate clearly or it is unable to.

[Brownie]

No matter how you think this god of your works, the fact remains that if there was a god who was both able and willing to communicate clearly to us, we would all agree as to what the message was (even if we didn't like it).

I doubt we would all agree!  We're individual human beings after all and would take away different things from the message.

[Shaker]

No matter how you think this god of your works, the fact remains that if there was a god who was both able and willing to communicate clearly to us, we would all agree as to what the message was (even if we didn't like it).

I doubt we would all agree!  We're individual human beings after all and would take away different things from the message.

No, not at all. The whole point is that a god of the traditional omni attributes with a message for humanity would want to share it and would know how to share it and would be able to share it with the utmost clarity and without any ambiguity whatsoever - no individual interpretation from person to person and from sect to sect at all.

[Stranger]

I doubt we would all agree!  We're individual human beings after all and would take away different things from the message.

If it was long and complicated, we might take away different things from it to an extent, but there is no reason why the basics of the message should be at all unclear. There should also be no uncertainty that there is a message and that it's from god.

There is certainly no reason for the disagreements we see about whether there are any gods and if so, what they or it are saying.

This is a clear indication that, if there is a god, it is either unable or unwilling to communicate clearly.

[jeremyp]

 Your confusing being told you will die with DROP DEAD INSTANTLY....

Incorrect. God said Adam would die in the same day, not instantly. Adam actually lived for more than 300,000 days in the end (according to the Bible). God was wrong by six orders of magnitude.

Adam and Eve died because God took away their right to eat from the tree of life.

So what? They didn't die the same day, did they?

So Gods words came true. Eating from the tree meant they lost the right to eat from the tree of life.

But they didn't die that day.

They were sent from the Garden unable to eat from the tree of life and so died.

But not on that day.

Just for confirmation they had the right to eat from the tree of life:-

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God said that they would die the same day. Did they die the same day? No. God was lying.

[jeremyp]

I didn't feel any embarrassment jeremy,

Nevertheless, the fact that one of the earliest stories in the Bible portrays the Christian god as a liar is an embarrassment. Otherwise, why do you people keep coming up with these feeble apologetics?

[Brownie]

Nevertheless, the fact that one of the earliest stories in the Bible portrays the Christian god as a liar is an embarrassment. Otherwise, why do you people keep coming up with these feeble apologetics?

jeremy, I am only saying what I think, not trying to come up with an argument.  I do not see that particular issue as showing God to be a liar, not because I am not prepared to admit God is a liar.  You believe the Bible portrays God as a liar - that's your prerogative and I won't dispute it with you because I accept you do not believe in God.

[jeremyp]

jeremy, I am only saying what I think, not trying to come up with an argument.  I do not see that particular issue as showing God to be a liar, not because I am not prepared to admit God is a liar.

You apply an unjustified interpretation to the words of the story. I can think of no other reason than you  don't want to admit that God is portrayed as a liar.

You believe the Bible portrays God as a liar

Because it does.

[2Corrie]

It doesn't say that, it just says "you will die".

If you look at the Hebrew it actually says "die die" but you knew that.

[Brownie]

I have been pondering over this and found the following:

http://www.accuracyingenesis.com/die.html

Probably won't mean much to many of you.  In truth, I prefer to read a passage and interpret it myself, already said I find it quite straightforward.  However some may find it interesting.

[Owlswing]

I have been pondering over this and found the following:

http://www.accuracyingenesis.com/die.html

Probably won't mean much to many of you.  In truth, I prefer to read a passage and interpret it myself, already said I find it quite straightforward.  However some may find it interesting.

Herein lies the problem!

When the Hebrew bible was translated into Greek, by seventy scholars - hence its name - the Septuagint - these translators found that they had trouble (please remember that these were the top scholars of their day, approximately 354 BCE) with some of the Hebrew.

The seventy consulted the most eminent Talmudic scholars for help. Unfortunately there turned out to be two problems. One, Hebrew is a contextual language, the same words can have different meaning depending on context, and so, if you haven't got the context right, you are going have trouble getting the translation right. Two, the Talmudic scholars had to admit to t4jhe seventy that the Hebrew that they were trying translate was, in places, so archaic that even the most eminent Talmudic and Hebrew scholars could not be 100% sure exactly what had been written.

How many times has Genesis been translated, re-written, and edited etc. etc. etc. since 354 BCE? Thus, it is highly unlikely that anyone knows exactly what the original writings said.

Now, unfortunately, when I have posted this before on this forum, Hope, Sassy, 2 Corrie and OMW have dismissed what I have said because it is not in their interests for me to be right.

I make my comments above as the results of research that I have conducted from various sources at the British Library. I am not asking you to accept them unconditionally, I just ask that you do not dismiss them out of hand.   

[Sassy]

Incorrect. God said Adam would die in the same day, not instantly. Adam actually lived for more than 300,000 days in the end (according to the Bible). God was wrong by six orders of magnitude.

So what? They didn't die the same day, did they?

But they didn't die that day.
But not on that day.


God said that they would die the same day. Did they die the same day? No. God was lying.

Yes they did die that day because they could no longer eat from the tree of life and live forever.
As for the rest of your argument...you don't have an argument. You stamping your feet, shoving your fingers in your ears and refusing to accept the Hebrew definition of 'die' is only letting you down personally as a scholar of any type.

The fact remains that Adam died two ways that day. He dies spiritually, separated from God and he began to die physically because he could not longer eat from the tree of life. In the day he ate of the fruit he died and so did Eve.

You cannot change what has been understood since God gave it to Moses.
It was given to Moses from God and so was the truth it contained. It is clear when God tells Adam and  Eve...

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

King James Bible
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
That there was no dropping dead there and then ever intended.

Nice try but anyone reading scroll of the Torah would know that there was no chapter and verse but just the events of what happened. It was never the writers intention or Gods that people should believe what you have decided to claim.
The whole account shows it was never on the cards or intended that way.

[Stranger]

God said that they would die the same day. Did they die the same day? No. God was lying.

Yes they did die that day because they could no longer eat from the tree of life and live forever.

Ah, this is obviously some strange usage of the word 'die' that I wasn't previously aware of...

 

[Sassy]

Yes they did die that day because they could no longer eat from the tree of life and live forever.


Ah, this is obviously some strange usage of the word 'die' that I wasn't previously aware of...

 

Hebrew word in Torah is 'die,die and so it if you think about Christs teachings.
"Fear not those who kill the body, but rather God who after death has the power to throw both body and soul into hell."
The fact is that even after physical death there is still God to face.
It is clear from the whole story that at no time was it intended to mean they would drop down dead.

I am not sure why people do not take into account the write and the author.

[floo]

Hebrew word in Torah is 'die,die and so it if you think about Christs teachings.
"Fear not those who kill the body, but rather God who after death has the power to throw both body and soul into hell."
The fact is that even after physical death there is still God to face.
It is clear from the whole story that at no time was it intended to mean they would drop down dead.

I am not sure why people do not take into account the write and the author.

That is NOT a FACT, only your belief!

[Leonard James]

That is NOT a FACT, only your belief!

It's just one Sass's daft beliefs in the midst of a load of others. 

[floo]

It's just one Sass's daft beliefs in the midst of a load of others. 

I suppose one should feel sad for her.

[Ricky Spanish]

Is there a reason why the Sass constantly quotes from the most corrupt translation of the bible?

[Ricky Spanish]

Hebrew word in Torah is 'die,die and so it if you think about Christs teachings.<SNIP>

No it's not. It's two separate words which a literalist like yourself should know is translated as "dying thou shall die"

[jeremyp]

Yes they did die that day

That really is a stupid statement. The Bible goes on to say Adam lived for another 900 years give or take.

because they could no longer eat from the tree of life and live forever.

There's a difference between dying and knowing you will die at some point in the future.

As for the rest of your argument

I am only stating the facts, not arguing anything.

The fact remains that Adam died two ways that day. He dies spiritually, separated from God and he began to die physically

But he didn't actually die as God said he would.

[Hope]

That really is a stupid statement. The Bible goes on to say Adam lived for another 900 years give or take.

And there is also a difference between dying physically and dying spiritually.