Biblical Translation

[Brownie]

Yes there is, Hope.  Being spiritually dead is not the same as physical death.
I know that some Christians, maybe some on here though they may not say so, have experienced something akin to spiritual death, eg ''being in the wilderness''.  Maybe that is something for another thread.

I noted someone above mentioned the King James Bible and said it was a ''Corrupt translation''.  That's news to me.  I  tend to use modern translations but cannot see anything wrong with the KJV, the writing is very beautiful too.
(Edited for grammer)

[Spud]

But he didn't actually die as God said he would.

An animal died the same day instead of him, to provide clothing.

[Brownie]

True:
Genesis 3:21
And the LORD God made clothing from animal skins for Adam and his wife

The story (which I believe is allegorical), is one of disobedience.  ''Adam and Eve'' disobeyed the Lord and were spiritually dead.  However they lived on in the flesh and had opportunity to do better.  It couldn't have been an easy life, which was their punishment.  They had to work very hard and experienced pain, illness, all the stuff that we experience without the modern benefits.

[Owlswing]

True:
Genesis 3:21
And the LORD God made clothing from animal skins for Adam and his wife

The story (which I believe is allegorical), is one of disobedience.  ''Adam and Eve'' disobeyed the Lord and were spiritually dead.  However they lived on in the flesh and had opportunity to do better.  It couldn't have been an easy life, which was their punishment.  They had to work very hard and experienced pain, illness, all the stuff that we experience without the modern benefits.

Yeah! IF, IF IF you believe the story!

[Brownie]

Nobody says you have to, Owlswing.  This is the Christian Topic forum so we are bound to talk about the Bible sometimes!

[jeremyp]

And there is also a difference between dying physically and dying spiritually.

The Bible says "you shall surely die". It doesn't qualify the word with "spiritually".

[jeremyp]

An animal died the same day instead of him, to provide clothing.

God said "you shall surely die" not "one of the animals shall surely die".

[Owlswing]

Nobody says you have to, Owlswing.  This is the Christian Topic forum so we are bound to talk about the Bible sometimes!

I am sorry Brownie, but if a Christian can go onto the Jewish Topic and slag Jews off for not posting there in case they should get b*******d for crucifying Christ, and also go onto the Pagan Topic to tell pagans that because they deny Christ they are nothing but a bunch of stupid ignorant people who believe in magic and false Gods and non-existent Goddesses and will find out just how stupid they are when they are thrown into the pit of Hell to suffer for the sin of blasphemy agaisnt the one and only true God, then I cannot see why I cannot come on here and make comments like that to which you replied as quoted above!

You cannot have it both ways. You are, I am glad to say, one of the more moderate Christians in your attitude to others, non-Christian others, please keep it that way, do not become another Hope, or worse another Sassy, or, even worse still, another Ad_O or Bashful Anthony.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

Look back over the interminable debate over what "temptation" means in the Lord's Prayer! Whatever you might THINK it means certainly ain't what Hope and OMW tell us!

Mainly this is because they and the other believers were asked to explain why those praying should have to ask their god not to lead them into temptation or why he might do so!

Think of it as being similar to Jesus's prayer in the garden of Gethsemane, where he asked God to "let this chalice pass over me".

(We, of course, do not use the KJV )

[Sassy]

Is there a reason why the Sass constantly quotes from the most corrupt translation of the bible?

The KJV is not corrupt at all. The Jewish scholars believe it to be the closest translation to their Torah.
Besides you would know that because they cannot change anything God wrote  so they actually made it so that you knew when a word of nearest definition to original Hebrew was replaced.

[floo]

And there is also a difference between dying physically and dying spiritually.

I doubt it.

[Sassy]

No it's not. It's two separate words which a literalist like yourself should know is translated as "dying thou shall die"

Actually, it is dying, they shall die according to the same text used in Numbers 26:65 just as in Genesis 2:17.
They did not die instantly either but died before they entered the promise land.
Either way Adam died Spiritually that day and died physically at 930 years.

Why anyone argues that it means instant death is silly because what happened to Adam applied to the whole of mankind.
Even though not yet born it clearly shows that God never intended for Adam to die on the spot.
Genesis 3:22-23King James Version (KJV)

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

As I said Adam died Spiritually that day and he also brought physical death to himself and mankind.

Adam and Eve as well as mankind would be the 'THEY. The "the" and "that" were actually the English added.

[Sassy]

That really is a stupid statement. The Bible goes on to say Adam lived for another 900 years give or take.

There's a difference between dying and knowing you will die at some point in the future.

I am only stating the facts, not arguing anything.
But he didn't actually die as God said he would.

Look JeremyP,

Nothing stupid just your ignorance and unwillingness to learn what the bible says and address each point made before.
As it teaches they died spiritually that day and also died physically in that death was in the body as it aged so they eventually physcially died. Tell me are you closer to your impending death or nearer your birth. You haven't died yet, but tell me does that mean you won't die? So if someone tells you that you are going to die are they right or wrong? No they are not giving you a date. But we both know one day you are going to die.

So Adam knows he has died spiritually and that he will die physically.
When Cain slew Abel it is clear that Adam and Cain knew they could be killed/die.

Not sure why you cannot see the obvious truths before you. That the OT was never about Adam dropping dead instantly.
Just in the day he sinned he could not longer live in the Garden of Eden or eat from the tree of life, which would have given him eternal life.

[Sassy]

The Bible says "you shall surely die". It doesn't qualify the word with "spiritually".

Literally, "dying they shall die", is what it means. So Adam lives 930 years and dies.
So all the time he lives he knows he is dying and eventually will die.
Just as you know you are dying though you haven't yet died. So as you age so you get closer to your death.
The whole of the OT shows that it was never meant to mean what you try to twist it into.

[Sassy]

I am sorry Brownie, but if a Christian can go onto the Jewish Topic and slag Jews off for not posting there in case they should get b*******d for crucifying Christ, and also go onto the Pagan Topic to tell pagans that because they deny Christ they are nothing but a bunch of stupid ignorant people who believe in magic and false Gods and non-existent Goddesses and will find out just how stupid they are when they are thrown into the pit of Hell to suffer for the sin of blasphemy agaisnt the one and only true God, then I cannot see why I cannot come on here and make comments like that to which you replied as quoted above!

You cannot have it both ways. You are, I am glad to say, one of the more moderate Christians in your attitude to others, non-Christian others, please keep it that way, do not become another Hope, or worse another Sassy, or, even worse still, another Ad_O or Bashful Anthony.

What a load rubbish. You are the perfect example of an hypocrit and all you claim above are lies. Look in the mirror, you see the person who is guilty of attacking believers and those like you.

If you can't tell the truth then don't say anything at all.

[Sassy]

Look back over the interminable debate over what "temptation" means in the Lord's Prayer! Whatever you might THINK it means certainly ain't what Hope and OMW tell us!

Mainly this is because they and the other believers were asked to explain why those praying should have to ask their god not to lead them into temptation or why he might do so!

Jesus taught everyone the Lord's prayer before his crucifixion and resurrection.
The prayer he taught was to the Jews. But he also taught an important teaching...
King James Bible
Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

King James Bible
Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?


God gives good things to those who ask from him. He would never give them something harmful.
Even Jesus Christ was tested by Satan but we see he does not fall or fail because of the word of God.
When Christ died and rose from the grave we received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
And we are taught that greater is he who is in us than he who is in the world.
Flesh and the world can still tempt believers but we have an advocate with the father so if we sin and we confess we can be forgiven.


At that time the Kingdom had only come near to the Jews as he told the disciples to tell people when he sent them out before his resurrection. But the Kingdom of God is within a person and to be part of that Kingdom people must be born of the Spirit and the truth.  God no longer a requires a earthly high priest to intercede for man with sacrifices because Christ has become the way in which all mankind can come to God and speak with him personally.

Some here could be 'tempted' to rebuke you as you speak falsely about the things which you cannot or do not want to understand.  One of the post I previously answered saw you casting dispersions on others those things you are guilty of doing to others. However we speak the truth and understand what we are speaking about. Knowing you are ignorant and unable to win your point you insult and cast dispersions on others.

If you are unable to reason and speak in a suitable manner about matter relating to a persons faith, should you be saying anything at all?

[floo]

Jesus taught everyone the Lord's prayer before his crucifixion and resurrection.
The prayer he taught was to the Jews. But he also taught an important teaching...
King James Bible
Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

King James Bible
Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?


God gives good things to those who ask from him. He would never give them something harmful.
Even Jesus Christ was tested by Satan but we see he does not fall or fail because of the word of God.
When Christ died and rose from the grave we received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
And we are taught that greater is he who is in us than he who is in the world.
Flesh and the world can still tempt believers but we have an advocate with the father so if we sin and we confess we can be forgiven.


At that time the Kingdom had only come near to the Jews as he told the disciples to tell people when he sent them out before his resurrection. But the Kingdom of God is within a person and to be part of that Kingdom people must be born of the Spirit and the truth.  God no longer a requires a earthly high priest to intercede for man with sacrifices because Christ has become the way in which all mankind can come to God and speak with him personally.

Some here could be 'tempted' to rebuke you as you speak falsely about the things which you cannot or do not want to understand.  One of the post I previously answered saw you casting dispersions on others those things you are guilty of doing to others. However we speak the truth and understand what we are speaking about. Knowing you are ignorant and unable to win your point you insult and cast dispersions on others.

If you are unable to reason and speak in a suitable manner about matter relating to a persons faith, should you be saying anything at all?

Talking to yourself again.

[Sassy]

Talking to yourself again.

Says the person who said she had met Christians who did not believe Christ rose from the dead...

I would find talking to myself preferable to actually saying something of that nature. At least I would know what I was talking about but in your case, you make it up as you go along and that said it all....

[Brownie]

I have to home in on one bit of your post, Owlswing.   This bit: "...  but if a Christian can go onto the Jewish Topic and slag Jews off for not posting there in case they should get b*******d for crucifying Christ... ''.

When the R&E forums were started, they were supposed to be an alternative to the BBC forums and, on the whole, things were replicated fairly well.  However I do remember often visiting the Jewish Topic and being appalled at the attitude there.  On the BBC Jewish forum that would definitely not have been allowed and the majority of posters were Jewish which is surely how it should be. It was interesting too.  Non-Jews posted sometimes but they asked polite questions and listened to the answers - if they didn't they were pushed off!   Jews would be hounded out from here.   Knowing some of the moderators, I am really surprised about this or perhaps they've not bothered to look.  At the start (don't know what it is like now), practically every thread was started by a Christian poster, proselytising.  The same on the Muslim Board - I haven't looked at the Pagan Forum.

I voiced my opinion more than once and cannot be the only person to have felt like that.  It was disappointing.  We live in a country where we have religious freedom and respect for the right of people to believe as they choose.  There was no respect on the Jewish Topic.

[floo]

Says the person who said she had met Christians who did not believe Christ rose from the dead...

I would find talking to myself preferable to actually saying something of that nature. At least I would know what I was talking about but in your case, you make it up as you go along and that said it all....

I have stated the TRUTH, I know some Christians who believe the resurrection is allegorical!

[Hope]

I have stated the TRUTH, I know some Christians who believe the resurrection is allegorical!

Likewise, but then since it is not us who decide whether or not our beliefs satisfy the tests that God applies, but God, one can legitimately question whether people claiming that belief are actually Christians.  I question the beliefs of loads of people who call themselves Christians.  Its to do with discernment and testing.

[Hope]

I have to home in on one bit of your post, Owlswing.   This bit: "...  but if a Christian can go onto the Jewish Topic and slag Jews off for not posting there in case they should get b*******d for crucifying Christ... ''.

When the R&E forums were started, they were supposed to be an alternative to the BBC forums and, on the whole, things were replicated fairly well.  However I do remember often visiting the Jewish Topic and being appalled at the attitude there.  On the BBC Jewish forum that would definitely not have been allowed and the majority of posters were Jewish which is surely how it should be. It was interesting too.  Non-Jews posted sometimes but they asked polite questions and listened to the answers - if they didn't they were pushed off!   Jews would be hounded out from here.   Knowing some of the moderators, I am really surprised about this or perhaps they've not bothered to look.  At the start (don't know what it is like now), practically every thread was started by a Christian poster, proselytising.  The same on the Muslim Board - I haven't looked at the Pagan Forum.

I voiced my opinion more than once and cannot be the only person to have felt like that.  It was disappointing.  We live in a country where we have religious freedom and respect for the right of people to believe as they choose.  There was no respect on the Jewish Topic.

How many Jewish posters - and I mean religious as opposed to ethnic - have we ever had on this forum?  Despite having been a moderator in the past, I would have to admit not knowing.

[Brownie]

I don't know Gordon.  Maybe there were some when it started who migrated from the BBC site but they didn't stick around.  Why would they?

[Humph Warden Bennett]

How many Jewish posters - and I mean religious as opposed to ethnic - have we ever had on this forum?  Despite having been a moderator in the past, I would have to admit not knowing.

I cannot ever remember any Jewish posters on this board. There were not that many on the BBC Board, which was dominated by Ebenezer/Pennywhistler/Cuppa Joe, and whoever he was falling out with at any particular time. There was one older lady who lived in Israel, one younger lady from the UK, and a couple of young blokes, one of whom used the name "Arch Stanton" and always referred to God as "G-d" (the other one I think was "Adam"). Most of the discussions as I remember were either people discussing the modern state of Israel, or asking questions about the Jewish faith. I only posted there a handful of times, and I was on almost every BBC board that was functioning.

[Brownie]

I remember all those you mentioned very well, Humph, and some others whose names escape me.  I found the discussions extremely interesting and some entertaining. Wish they were here!  At least we'd have a Jewish presence on the board.