Author Topic: World’s First Law for 'Death on Demand' Euthanasia  (Read 3850 times)

Keith Maitland

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World’s First Law for 'Death on Demand' Euthanasia
« on: March 15, 2016, 04:55:07 AM »
THE world’s first ‘death on demand’ law is set to go before legislators in Belgium who have already ushered through an ultra-liberal euthanasia regime. The rules would mean no doctor would be able to block the wishes of a patient who asked to die.

The law - put forward by the country’s opposition socialist party - is thought to have a high chance of commanding support from a majority of Belgian MPs. The proposals come as the number dying each year under the country’s euthanasia laws has doubled in five years to reach more than 2,000. Doctors approached by someone wanting help to die would have to approve it within seven days or pass the patient on to a doctor prepared to give approval. The principle is similar to that which is operated by UK doctors under abortion guidelines, which mean that they are not allowed to prevent a patient from terminating a pregnancy.

The Belgian euthanasia proposals would also compel doctors to treat requests for assisted suicide as urgent cases - so no doctor could try to persuade a patient to wait to see if they change their mind about dying. Lib Dem peer Lord Carlile said he was astonished by the plans for ‘euthanasia on demand’. He said: 'It is astonishing that Belgian politicians, doctors, ethicists and scientists remain so silent in the face of these changes in Belgian law.’

Brownie

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Re: World’s First Law for 'Death on Demand' Euthanasia
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2016, 05:02:37 AM »
The Belgian euthanasia proposals would also compel doctors to treat requests for assisted suicide as urgent cases - so no doctor could try to persuade a patient to wait to see if they change their mind about dying.

That seems a bit strong to me.  Many doctors will be unhappy about being compelled to go along with something that goes against their conscience.
I wonder where it will all end.
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Leonard James

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Re: World’s First Law for 'Death on Demand' Euthanasia
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2016, 05:51:23 AM »
The Belgian euthanasia proposals would also compel doctors to treat requests for assisted suicide as urgent cases - so no doctor could try to persuade a patient to wait to see if they change their mind about dying.

That seems a bit strong to me.  Many doctors will be unhappy about being compelled to go along with something that goes against their conscience.
I wonder where it will all end.

They are not compelled to do it. If it goes against their conscience, they are given the option of passing the patient to another doctor who will do it.

Nearly Sane

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Re: World’s First Law for 'Death on Demand' Euthanasia
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2016, 06:06:25 AM »
They are not compelled to do it. If it goes against their conscience, they are given the option of passing the patient to another doctor who will do it.
What if there was a case where no doctor would? The extract of the law seems very prescriptive in that regard. Since this is a form of elective 'medical procedure', would a law compelling doctors to carry out all cosmetic surgery requests also be introduced as part of this move?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: World’s First Law for 'Death on Demand' Euthanasia
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2016, 06:12:57 AM »
THE world’s first ‘death on demand’ law is set to go before legislators in Belgium who have already ushered through an ultra-liberal euthanasia regime. The rules would mean no doctor would be able to block the wishes of a patient who asked to die.

The law - put forward by the country’s opposition socialist party - is thought to have a high chance of commanding support from a majority of Belgian MPs. The proposals come as the number dying each year under the country’s euthanasia laws has doubled in five years to reach more than 2,000. Doctors approached by someone wanting help to die would have to approve it within seven days or pass the patient on to a doctor prepared to give approval. The principle is similar to that which is operated by UK doctors under abortion guidelines, which mean that they are not allowed to prevent a patient from terminating a pregnancy.

The Belgian euthanasia proposals would also compel doctors to treat requests for assisted suicide as urgent cases - so no doctor could try to persuade a patient to wait to see if they change their mind about dying. Lib Dem peer Lord Carlile said he was astonished by the plans for ‘euthanasia on demand’. He said: 'It is astonishing that Belgian politicians, doctors, ethicists and scientists remain so silent in the face of these changes in Belgian law.’
Great..........Doctors jailed or struck off for refusal to follow the state .
If somebody wants help to end it all  THEY should find a doctor willing to do it.
That's what fucking Google and yellow pages are for.

Leonard James

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Re: World’s First Law for 'Death on Demand' Euthanasia
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2016, 06:23:22 AM »
What if there was a case where no doctor would?

Then the patient would have to suffer on. Too bad, eh?



Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: World’s First Law for 'Death on Demand' Euthanasia
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2016, 06:23:44 AM »
They are not compelled to do it. If it goes against their conscience, they are given the option of passing the patient to another doctor who will do it.
They are if they have to provide information and administration on passing on to a consultant or specialist.

Nearly Sane

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Re: World’s First Law for 'Death on Demand' Euthanasia
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2016, 06:30:20 AM »
Then the patient would have to suffer on. Too bad, eh?
Not according to the OP.

floo

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Re: World’s First Law for 'Death on Demand' Euthanasia
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2016, 08:25:17 AM »
Whilst I think a person has the right to terminate their lives if they are unbearable, and they are of sound mind, I don't think doctors should assist. I think people especially trained in assisted death should do the business.

Shaker

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Re: World’s First Law for 'Death on Demand' Euthanasia
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2016, 08:27:51 AM »
Whilst I think a person has the right to terminate their lives if they are unbearable, and they are of sound mind, I don't think doctors should assist. I think people especially trained in assisted death should do the business.
... which presumably includes medical training of some sort.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

floo

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Re: World’s First Law for 'Death on Demand' Euthanasia
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2016, 09:39:33 AM »
... which presumably includes medical training of some sort.

Why would you need medical training to give someone a potion, which will terminate their life, which is how it is done in Switzerland?
« Last Edit: March 15, 2016, 12:15:18 PM by Floo »

Shaker

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Re: World’s First Law for 'Death on Demand' Euthanasia
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2016, 09:47:06 AM »
Why would you need medical training to give someone of potion, which will terminate their life, which is how it is done in Switzerland?
Because you need a certain degree of medical know-how in order to bring about death quickly, peacefully and painlessly.

It's not at all difficult to kill somebody in such a manner - you could find the details in widely-available books thirty or more years ago (Derek Humphry's then-controversial Final Exit, for example) and nowadays online no doubt, but you need to know what drugs to use and how best to administer them. There have been umpteen horrific stories from the USA where they execute death row prisoners by lethal injection, one of the worst ways to kill someone if it goes wrong. Because the manufacturers of barbiturates have a moral objection to capital punishment they won't sell their wares to prisons intending to execute prisoners, so the prisons rely on a far more dodgy three-stage lethal injection which, crucially, is administered by people with little or no medical knowledge. This has led to some prisoners dying in the most appalling agony because the staff have cocked it up - missed a vein and injected the solution into tissue, not given enough anaesthetic first so the prisoner is awake but paralysed and thus they suffocate while conscious, and so on.

In short, it's not hard to kill somebody quickly and painlessly - in fact it's incredibly easy - but it takes the right drugs in the first place (that takes a pharmacist) and the knowledge of how to administer them (somebody with medical knowledge to some level). Only medical folk have such knowledge.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2016, 09:50:17 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

floo

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Re: World’s First Law for 'Death on Demand' Euthanasia
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2016, 09:56:11 AM »
Because you need a certain degree of medical know-how in order to bring about death quickly, peacefully and painlessly.

It's not at all difficult to kill somebody in such a manner - you could find the details in widely-available books thirty or more years ago (Derek Humphry's then-controversial Final Exit, for example) and nowadays online no doubt, but you need to know what drugs to use and how best to administer them. There have been umpteen horrific stories from the USA where they execute death row prisoners by lethal injection, one of the worst ways to kill someone if it goes wrong. Because the manufacturers of barbiturates have a moral objection to capital punishment they won't sell their wares to prisons intending to execute prisoners, so the prisons rely on a far more dodgy three-stage lethal injection which, crucially, is administered by people with little or no medical knowledge. This has led to some prisoners dying in the most appalling agony because the staff have cocked it up - missed a vein and injected the solution into tissue, not given enough anaesthetic first so the prisoner is awake but paralysed and thus they suffocate while conscious, and so on.

In short, it's not hard to kill somebody quickly and painlessly - in fact it's incredibly easy - but it takes the right drugs in the first place (that takes a pharmacist) and the knowledge of how to administer them (somebody with medical knowledge to some level). Only medical folk have such knowledge.

You should have training in how to kill someone painlessly of course. But you don't need medical training as such, just how to effectively assist death, I wouldn't think it was that difficult. I would be willing to have such training, should it ever become legal in the UK.

Bubbles

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Re: World’s First Law for 'Death on Demand' Euthanasia
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2016, 09:56:55 AM »
You should have training in how to kill someone painlessly of course. But you don't need medical training as such, just how to effectively assist death, I wouldn't think it was that difficult. I would be willing to have such training, should it ever become legal in the UK.

 :o :o :o

 :-X

Brownie

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Re: World’s First Law for 'Death on Demand' Euthanasia
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2016, 10:50:05 AM »
Then the patient would have to suffer on. Too bad, eh?

No, they can find another doctor.  Or they can be treated with sufficient analgesia to make the rest of their life comfortable, and not be given antibiotics etc for anything else that might happen along the way.  The Hospice movement and the MacMillan team already do that, relieving suffering in chronically sick/terminal patients.
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Rhiannon

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Re: World’s First Law for 'Death on Demand' Euthanasia
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2016, 10:59:13 AM »
No, they can find another doctor.  Or they can be treated with sufficient analgesia to make the rest of their life comfortable, and not be given antibiotics etc for anything else that might happen along the way.  The Hospice movement and the MacMillan team already do that, relieving suffering in chronically sick/terminal patients.

Which works for some patients with some illnesses.

Aside from that, being free from pain does not mean freedom from suffering.

Brownie

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Re: World’s First Law for 'Death on Demand' Euthanasia
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2016, 12:14:00 PM »
Which works for some patients with some illnesses.

Aside from that, being free from pain does not mean freedom from suffering.

I know that Rhiannon, I've been around sick people (MND, Parkinsons, MS, oesophogeal cancer, stroke to name a few).  There's no easy answer.
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Rhiannon

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Re: World’s First Law for 'Death on Demand' Euthanasia
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2016, 12:56:03 PM »
I know that Rhiannon, I've been around sick people (MND, Parkinsons, MS, oesophogeal cancer, stroke to name a few).  There's no easy answer.

No.

I've posted on here before about the chap I knew with MND who drove his electric wheelchair into his garden pond whilst his wife was out. There's no easy answer, no, but I'm damned sure leaving people to do that isn't any kind of solution either.

Bubbles

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Re: World’s First Law for 'Death on Demand' Euthanasia
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2016, 12:59:49 PM »
I'm not convinced death on demand is the answer either.  :(

Rhiannon

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Re: World’s First Law for 'Death on Demand' Euthanasia
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2016, 01:04:02 PM »
We have so many human rights now that we make much of, yet the right to a painless death at the time of our choosing isn't one of them.

Shaker

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Re: World’s First Law for 'Death on Demand' Euthanasia
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2016, 01:08:37 PM »
We have so many human rights now that we make much of, yet the right to a painless death at the time of our choosing isn't one of them.
Or at least not in very many places.

That's because when it comes to the final freedom, the I-know-best crowd suddenly view everybody else as reckless and feckless children and themselves as sober, serious parents.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: World’s First Law for 'Death on Demand' Euthanasia
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2016, 01:13:30 PM »
Or at least not in very many places.

That's because when it comes to the final freedom, the I-know-best crowd suddenly view everybody else as reckless and feckless children and themselves as sober, serious parents.

There's an element of that, certainly.

There's also the need for personal comfort. It's a bit like some of the homophobia we see; 'I find that distasteful/uncomfortable so you shouldn't be allowed to do it.'

Bubbles

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Re: World’s First Law for 'Death on Demand' Euthanasia
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2016, 01:14:46 PM »
Most parents see their job as protecting their children.

http://youtu.be/Pik-JtJ5WlM


I was looking at the case of

Quote


Nathan, born Nancy, Verhelst, 44, was given legal euthanasia, most likely by lethal injection, on the grounds of "unbearable psychological suffering" on Monday afternoon.



I really find the mothers reaction strange ( at the end of the clip) did she really not care about her child to that extent?

What a cold person.

What a lonely child she / he was then  :(

No one to love them  :o

With love maybe they wouldn't have felt so lost  :-\
« Last Edit: March 15, 2016, 02:03:15 PM by Rose »

Bubbles

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Re: World’s First Law for 'Death on Demand' Euthanasia
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2016, 01:28:14 PM »
While looker deeper into what seems to me to be the very cold reaction of his mother, I have come across another worrying aspect of it.

Quote

A survey released on Wednesday has added to debate after finding that three quarters of Belgians support the euthanasia of children with incurable diseases, even without their consent.
The La Libre-RTBF opinion poll found that 38m per cent are "very favourable" to the euthanasia of minors at a time when Belgium's parliament is debating changes to the law to allowing doctors to kill children with terminal illnesses if they ask for it.
The survey also found that 79 per cent of Belgians are in favour of extending the euthanasia law to adults with severe dementia, a condition that raises problems over the question of consent.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/10349159/Mother-of-sex-change-Belgian-I-dont-care-about-his-euthanasia-death.html



It's underneath at the bottom of the link.

But I find it worrying that they appear to be heading in the same direction as Hitler.

Killing those in society that are deemed " worthless or disabled"

How long will it be before consent isn't required at all? Or parential consent not needed for children.

And how far down the line are they prepared to go in euthanasing children with incurable conditions?

Autistic? Downs Syndrome?

It's what Hitler wanted to do, once , to improve his ayrian super race.

Yes, it's Godwins, but in this case, I think it fits.



« Last Edit: March 15, 2016, 02:09:44 PM by Rose »

Shaker

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Re: World’s First Law for 'Death on Demand' Euthanasia
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2016, 01:31:41 PM »
There's an element of that, certainly.

There's also the need for personal comfort. It's a bit like some of the homophobia we see; 'I find that distasteful/uncomfortable so you shouldn't be allowed to do it.'
Ah, well - that, as A.C. Grayling has said, is the hallmark of every moralist anywhere since for ever - "I don't like it, therefore you can't do it/see it/read it/listen to it/drink it/smoke it/take it."
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.