The broom closet in the mansion.....

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

Here is a BBC article about the unconscious mind.

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20160315-the-enormous-power-of-the-unconscious-brain

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Both Eagleman and Naber had their brain activity monitored via an electroencephalogram (EEG). The difference was stark. Eagleman’s brain was firing on all cylinders, but Naber’s barely flinched – despite the pace at which he was moving.

“His brain was much more serene than mine because he had automised his behaviour,” explains Eagleman. Hours a day of practice had internalised the behaviour of cup stacking for Naber, making it far less mentally taxing. What other things can our brains get up to without conscious intervention?

It’s a question that Eagleman explored in a PBS television series that aired recently on BBC4 in the UK. The non-conscious mind, he says, plays a much deeper role in our everyday decisions and relationships than we might realise.

You’re already aware of the fact that breathing and organ functions are things we do “automatically”, but there are lots of other examples.

The non-conscious mind also plays a role in more sophisticated actions, whether it’s deciding on attraction to the opposite sex, completing mathematical sums or forming political views. There are even strange cases where people who are ostensibly blind can ‘see’, thanks to the non-conscious part of their minds: a phenomenon known as blindsight.

“There is debate in the field about whether consciousness even has efficacy,” says Eagleman. “By the time your conscious mind registers something, is it always just the last guy to get the news, and it doesn’t even matter what it thinks?”

The more we probe the brain’s workings, the more we realise that our conscious minds are really just a summary of what our brains get up to all the time – without “us” having any idea. As Eagleman puts it, “The conscious you, which is the part that flickers to life when you wake up in the morning, is the smallest bit of what’s happening in your head.

“It’s like a broom closet in the mansion of the brain.”

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The 'unconscious mind'! Always interesting....always intriguing!

Cheers.

Sriram 

[Enki]

With this OP, Sriram, I am in full agreement. I have long thought that the unconscious mind plays a major role in our lives. I used to play jazz, which involves a large amount of improvisation, albeit on a recognisable structure. I was fascinated by the fact that if I relaxed and 'went with the flow', as we all tried to, then the results could be truly exhilarating at times, at least for us.

Nowadays I dance a lot. At first we(my wife and I) have to learn the actual steps of a sequence foxtrot, for instance. When that process has been partially automated within our brains then we have the time to interpret the dance in relation to the music, a process which involves very little conscious effort.

I actually see the unconscious to the conscious as some sort of gradation, rather than a neat demarcation, though.

Incidentally I watched the complete series by Eagleman on BBC4.

[Sriram]

The problem is that the unconscious mind is ...well...unconscious. So...we don't even know what it constitutes.

I am not sure if the automated responses arising out of practice (as given in the article and by you) can be categorized as part of the unconscious. IMO they are just automated responses.....not necessarily unconscious. We can become conscious of them anytime we want voluntarily, though it could disrupt the flow.

Historically, we tend to include repressed memories and subtle sensory observations as part of the unconscious. Sleep walking, unexplained phobias and such other phenomena are usually attributed to the unconscious mind.

The other more important aspects of the unconscious mind brought out in recent years are.... decision making even before the conscious mind is aware of it, placebo effects, better forecasting of future events and so on.

[Enki]

Sriram,

I am not sure if the automated responses arising out of practice (as given in the article and by you) can be categorized as part of the unconscious. IMO they are just automated responses.....not necessarily unconscious. We can become conscious of them anytime we want voluntarily, though it could disrupt the flow.

I think you need to reread what I wrote, especially this part:

When that process has been partially automated within our brains then we have the time to interpret the dance in relation to the music, a process which involves very little conscious effort.

The point about that was not the automated learning itself, but the freedom that seems to give for the unconscious part of our mind to express itself in such situations.

[Sriram]

HI everyone,

Without knowing anything about the unconscious mind...the fact that they are attributing is all to the brain...is a sad commentary on how science works.

As I have discussed before, the brain is merely the 'hardware' platform on which the mind (software) gets loaded.  The unconscious mind is clearly an advanced 'software' that probably uses not just the brain but also other body parts (heart) as a platform. 

Cheers.

Sriram

[Stranger]

Without knowing anything about the unconscious mind...the fact that they are attributing is all to the brain...is a sad commentary on how science works.

It's called following the evidence.

As I have discussed before, the brain is merely the 'hardware' platform on which the mind (software) gets loaded.  The unconscious mind is clearly an advanced 'software' that probably uses not just the brain but also other body parts (heart) as a platform. 

Loaded from where?

Evidence? Reasoning? Anything at all to support these assertions?

[Enki]

HI everyone,

Without knowing anything about the unconscious mind...the fact that they are attributing is all to the brain...is a sad commentary on how science works.

As I have discussed before, the brain is merely the 'hardware' platform on which the mind (software) gets loaded.  The unconscious mind is clearly an advanced 'software' that probably uses not just the brain but also other body parts (heart) as a platform. 

Cheers.

Sriram

Whilst agreeing that the heart, as do certain other body parts, contain neurons(indeed the nervous system is an extension of the brain), I do not see any scientific evidence whatever which suggests that the mind is some sort of advanced software which 'gets loaded' onto the brain, presumably, from elsewhere. Everything we know so far suggest that the mind is equivalent to the electrical activity within the brain. You are quite welcome to your assertions but unless you can give sound scientific evidence to back them up, that's all they remain, I'm afraid. I certainly have no reason to share your views.

[Sriram]

Whilst agreeing that the heart, as do certain other body parts, contain neurons(indeed the nervous system is an extension of the brain), I do not see any scientific evidence whatever which suggests that the mind is some sort of advanced software which 'gets loaded' onto the brain, presumably, from elsewhere. Everything we know so far suggest that the mind is equivalent to the electrical activity within the brain. You are quite welcome to your assertions but unless you can give sound scientific evidence to back them up, that's all they remain, I'm afraid. I certainly have no reason to share your views.

There have been certain famous cases of transfer of memory and personality traits from donor to recipient due to heart transplants.

[torridon]

There have been certain famous cases of transfer of memory and personality traits from donor to recipient due to heart transplants.

Given that we see bodies in terms of distributed intelligence and memory that is not so surprising perhaps. I recall you posting up one of your Science Daily features on microchimerism not long back : mothers take on some of the mind of their children (literally) by exchange of brain cells across the placenta during pregnancy. So, although we feel like unique individual persons, we are really composites, aggregated from multiple organisms.

[torridon]

As I have discussed before, the brain is merely the 'hardware' platform on which the mind (software) gets loaded.  The unconscious mind is clearly an advanced 'software' that probably uses not just the brain but also other body parts (heart) as a platform. 

I know you're fond of that metaphor, but its not particularly accurate or helpful beyond a very elementary level of discourse.  There is no evidence to support a mechanism of 'loading' or 'unloading' of mind into brain like we might do with computer hardware and software.  A closer form of words is this : mind arises from body; or, complex bodies with sophisticated needs develop mind to optimise functioning; mind is produced by body on the fly. 

To illustrate that with a simple example, the thought 'I must get a bite to eat' has its origins in the fundamental metabolic needs of the body, with neurons in the gut detecting a state of undernourishment leading to the primitive mind state we call 'hunger'; this base emotional state propogates upwards through various higher cortical areas picking up definition as it rises, eventually becoming 'Must go get a kebab' or somesuch.

All bodies produce heat, persipiration, and so forth; complex bodies however also produce mind to faciliate the complex pathways from base need, through cognition to motor response ensuring needs are met in an optimal way.

[wigginhall]

Yes, the idea of the brain loading software seems odd to me, as it suggests that the software exists independently, like a copy of Word.   I know that some people believe this, but where does this software exist?  It makes more sense that mind is the brain operating, from a certain point of view, that is, first person.   Of course, the first person is mysterious, but again, it is plausible that the brain creates that also. 

[Sriram]

I know you're fond of that metaphor, but its not particularly accurate or helpful beyond a very elementary level of discourse.  There is no evidence to support a mechanism of 'loading' or 'unloading' of mind into brain like we might do with computer hardware and software.  A closer form of words is this : mind arises from body; or, complex bodies with sophisticated needs develop mind to optimise functioning; mind is produced by body on the fly. 

To illustrate that with a simple example, the thought 'I must get a bite to eat' has its origins in the fundamental metabolic needs of the body, with neurons in the gut detecting a state of undernourishment leading to the primitive mind state we call 'hunger'; this base emotional state propogates upwards through various higher cortical areas picking up definition as it rises, eventually becoming 'Must go get a kebab' or somesuch.

All bodies produce heat, persipiration, and so forth; complex bodies however also produce mind to faciliate the complex pathways from base need, through cognition to motor response ensuring needs are met in an optimal way.

As with software, there are several mental levels also.  There is the Operating system that comes with the hardware without which basic functions will not be possible. Then the mind is developed further through parental care and tutoring. The brain wiring develops according to the training and not by itself. Its the mind that makes the brain develop its pathways.   That is one method of 'loading'.  Further, there are also higher level software that get 'loaded' through learning and education.   

Its the interaction with the environment that activates the loading and unloading.
 
Further there is the Unconscious mind that seems to override may conscious matters. This is like an internet connection that brings in many mental influences directly.  In some instances the brain also works like a TV receiver and seems to tap into some general pool for information. 

I know it is extremely difficult to form a clear and complete model of the mind, brain, the Unconscious etc. But we can make a beginning. 

Merely digging into the brain cells to understand the mind will not work...IMO.

[torridon]

As with software, there are several mental levels also.  There is the Operating system that comes with the hardware without which basic functions will not be possible. Then the mind is developed further through parental care and tutoring. The brain wiring develops according to the training and not by itself. Its the mind that makes the brain develop its pathways.   That is one method of 'loading'.  Further, there are also higher level software that get 'loaded' through learning and education.   

Its the interaction with the environment that activates the loading and unloading.
 
Further there is the Unconscious mind that seems to override may conscious matters. This is like an internet connection that brings in many mental influences directly.  In some instances the brain also works like a TV receiver and seems to tap into some general pool for information. 

I know it is extremely difficult to form a clear and complete model of the mind, brain, the Unconscious etc. But we can make a beginning. 

Merely digging into the brain cells to understand the mind will not work...IMO.

'digging into the brain cells', ie neuroscience is certainly throwing light on the mysteries of the brain but it is not the only discipline.  Psychiatry, psychoanalysis, psychology, cognitive science, information theory, computer science, even fundamental physics, are also contributing to building a better understanding of brain function, and that's a good thing, insights born of interdisciplinary approaches tend to be more robust, as we have seen with evolutionary biology.

I think your metaphors of unloading and loading, and of hardware/software, both these metaphors are going to be limiting sooner or later.  Rather than thinking in terms of hardwiring, the brain is more softwired, ie it is constantly 'reprogramming' itself unlike your desktop whose hardware remains fixed once it leaves the factory.  Neuroscience has shown for instance that the brain builds neurons and synapses at a phenomenal rate during the first two years of life - something like 2 million synapses every second, an astonishing thought.  But then after two years old pruning sets it and we start eliminating synapses, again, at a considerable rate. So, at two years old, we are like a new block of stone hewn from the quarry, and thereafter life chips away at us like a sculptor, fashioning us into the particular individuals we become. This of course chimes with what child psychologists have been telling us for years; it also supports Steven Pinker's notion of the blank slate.

Another elementary misconception is this : 'Its the mind that makes the brain develop its pathways.' It is life that sculpts us, interaction with the outside world.  As we grow older we do make choices about career directions and so forth but those choices are all made in the context of a mind/brain that is always a continually developing outcome of its experiences to date. We don't so much choose our life as we are fashioned by life into the people that we become.

[Sriram]

Yes...I certainly agree that the hardware - software analogy is limited and cannot be applied in everything. That is true of any analogy.

Yes...the brain is pliable and develops according to our experiences and training. That is why I say that the brain cannot be credited with all our mental characteristics. It does not create or modify itself. It is the mind and thoughts arising due to our interactions and learning, which modify the brain and give it its new pathways and wiring.

If a child is left unattended from childhood, its brain will not develop at all. So...the brain owes its growth and development to certain forces such as the mind and thoughts that arise from experience and training.   

[torridon]

Yes...I certainly agree that the hardware - software analogy is limited and cannot be applied in everything. That is true of any analogy.

Yes...the brain is pliable and develops according to our experiences and training. That is why I say that the brain cannot be credited with all our mental characteristics. It does not create or modify itself. It is the mind and thoughts arising due to our interactions and learning, which modify the brain and give it its new pathways and wiring.

If a child is left unattended from childhood, its brain will not develop at all. So...the brain owes its growth and development to certain forces such as the mind and thoughts that arise from experience and training.

Our mind and thoughts do not modify the brain, so much as life experiences modify the brain, and mind and thoughts are the functioning of that resultant sculpted brain. A child left unattended will develop but it will be poorly socialised and poorly educated.  To make a well functioning human requires a lot of nurture, and that nurturing induces forms of mental functioning that fit well with current social norms such as language, cultures, beliefs. Understanding this makes it easier to understand why people by and large remain within the span of their childhood cultural background and beliefs. We come into the world primed to be able to develop into some or other sort of person, and early childhood experience fashions us into some or other such person; our ability to grow neural connections never again approaches the headlong rush of brain building of the early years.

[ippy]

 Ever thought about finding out about various parts of our brains, by studying people that have terrible accidents involving serious head injuries and have survived of course, enabling us to learn whatever the damaged parts of the brain used to do, by studying whatever might be missing that was there before?

A subtractive way of learning.

V C Ramachanderan's ambulance chasing for the right reasons.

V C Ramachanderan's book "Phantoms in the Brain".

ippy