Is the non existence of God true for everyone.

[Shaker]

Dear Stranger,

Fair enough, I will leave you with a quote which I totally agree with.
 

Francis Bacon.

Gonnagle.

Nobody told Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Sartre, Russell ...

[Stranger]

Fair enough, I will leave you with a quote which I totally agree with.
 

Small amounts of philosophy lead to atheism, but larger amounts bring us back to God.

Francis Bacon.

It's a bit meaningless by itself, isn't it? Just an assertion that many philosophers would dispute.

[Jack Knave]

How do you know what the word means then?

The theists set out the definition and meaning of the word God. That is their hypothesis on the issue and that word 'God', and that is what I work from - I did say "per se" with regards to this. If they set it out then there are numerous Gods because there are numerous definitions, and numerous minds that hold a definition of God.

I, therefore, don't have a concept of God that I hold as true for me, personally, but take on board the hypotheses that are presented to me and analyse and assess these for their possible merits and plausibility.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jack, ( Hi Jack )

So what do you make of this definition,

A second important difference between pantheism and traditional theistic religions is that pantheists also reject the idea of God’s personhood. The pantheist God is not a personal God, the kind of entity that could have beliefs, desires, intentions, or agency. Unlike the traditional God of theism, the pantheistic God does not have a will and cannot act in or upon the universe. These are the kind of things that only a person, or a person-like entity, could do. For the pantheist, God is the non-personal divinity that pervades all existence. It is the divine Unity of the world.

Has it got merit, plausibility, have you ever contemplated this kind of God.

Gonnagle.

[Enki]

Dear Some Kind of Stranger, ( can I just call you Stranger )

Yes! and this is my sticking point with atheists ( not atheism ) atheists dismiss any notion of God/gods but have they explored every notion, every idea, do atheists ever consider what God is or is not, did you read Shakers excellent post on Pantheism, did that not make you stop and think, funny thing about that thread, not a lot of atheists joined in that debate, the ones that did were short and sweet.

Atheism, yes, but atheists I know what I mean

Gonnagle.

That's a bit harsh, Gonners. I'm an atheist and I don't simply dismiss the idea that any god(s) can't possibly exist. I simply have no belief in any of the particular variations that have so far been presented to me.  Also, in the thread you mention, I actually did describe my generalised idea of the divine as:

some sort of conscious presence, and, in this context(i.e. the natural world) I certainly don't have feelings, and have never had feelings which suggest this at all.

[Stranger]

So what do you make of this definition,

A second important difference between pantheism and traditional theistic religions is that pantheists also reject the idea of God’s personhood. The pantheist God is not a personal God, the kind of entity that could have beliefs, desires, intentions, or agency. Unlike the traditional God of theism, the pantheistic God does not have a will and cannot act in or upon the universe. These are the kind of things that only a person, or a person-like entity, could do. For the pantheist, God is the non-personal divinity that pervades all existence. It is the divine Unity of the world.

Has it got merit, plausibility, have you ever contemplated this kind of God.

My reaction would be: I have no idea what "the divine Unity of the world" means. Is it the same thing as the universe or not?

If it is, then why bother calling it god?

If it isn't, then what exactly is it?

[Rhiannon]

I'm a pantheist and I see no need to throw the word 'divine' in there.

[Jack Knave]

Dear Jack, ( Hi Jack )

So what do you make of this definition,

A second important difference between pantheism and traditional theistic religions is that pantheists also reject the idea of God’s personhood. The pantheist God is not a personal God, the kind of entity that could have beliefs, desires, intentions, or agency. Unlike the traditional God of theism, the pantheistic God does not have a will and cannot act in or upon the universe. These are the kind of things that only a person, or a person-like entity, could do. For the pantheist, God is the non-personal divinity that pervades all existence. It is the divine Unity of the world.



Has it got merit, plausibility, have you ever contemplated this kind of God.

Gonnagle.

It's not really a definition but as it says is a comparison of two ideas or aspects of the God genre.

This just goes to show how nebulous and flexible the word God is to various people, that such extremes can be had for one word; making it meaningless.

Yes I have come across such ideas of God. Shaker did a pantheistic thread fairly recently, but the ideas of pantheism have been know to me for decades. What is said in the quote you have provided pretty much makes that God almost synonymous with the laws of physics, or at least it is an element of it. 

[jeremyp]

Actually, that's one of the problems in discussions here - the word actually covers a lot of different and often disjoint notions.

If we are are talking about God with a capital "G", I'd say that while there are many notions, they are not disjoint. The idea that God is the creator of our Universe is probably common to all, unless you are counting pantheists.

I'd say that I don't have my own god concept that I reject but that all the god concepts I've encountered seem absurd for one reason or another.

But you do have a god concept, or even many. god concepts. And so does Jack or he wouldn't know what the word means.

[jeremyp]

So Jeremyp, old chum, what is your concept of God, or any atheist, do you have a concept of God, the one you don't believe in.

I was brought up a Christian, so the word "God" triggers the Christian concept (or one of them) of what God is, but I am also aware of other concepts of God, like the Muslim one. Intellectually, my minimal concept of God is "intelligent being that created the Universe".

[Rhiannon]

I was brought up a Christian so can relate to Jeremy's post. But pagan deities are different - I think Owlswing will agree with me - they are not necessarily that interested in normal 'God' stuff - worship, being believed in or saving people especially. Pagan ideas about creator deities are generally quite vague (in a good way) and most come down to some kind of panentheistic idea when picked apart.

My perception of how pagan deities are viewed is that they aren't giant omni-beings, but local, immediate and can take or leave humanity as they wish. I might not believe in them but they are bloody good fun for those that do.

[Owlswing]

I was brought up a Christian so can relate to Jeremy's post. But pagan deities are different - I think Owlswing will agree with me - they are not necessarily that interested in normal 'God' stuff - worship, being believed in or saving people especially. Pagan ideas about creator deities are generally quite vague (in a good way) and most come down to some kind of panentheistic idea when picked apart.

My perception of how pagan deities are viewed is that they aren't giant omni-beings, but local, immediate and can take or leave humanity as they wish. I might not believe in them but they are bloody good fun for those that do.

My Pagan deities are like those of the Greeks, the Romans and the Norsemen. They are far more human that the Christian deity. They have human failings, human emotions.

They did not create the universe or the world, they inhabit it just as we do.

Oh, and they don't give a tinker's damn if we believe in them or not.

[Stranger]

If we are are talking about God with a capital "G", I'd say that while there are many notions, they are not disjoint. The idea that God is the creator of our Universe is probably common to all, unless you are counting pantheists.

What I think you mean is that there are some parts of the concepts that are common to all, like "creator of our universe"?

I'm totally sure if that is true - I've spoken to some people who claim to be Christians who don't actually seem to know themselves what their god is - or perhaps they didn't want to say.

Anyway, my original point (and I probably did not express it clearly) was that if you pick one god (say one of the YEC gods) and compare with another (more liberal version) while they may both be claimed to be creator of the universe and (possibly but not always) have all the omnis they might have very little else in common. Both versions cannot exist; they are mutually exclusive beliefs.

But you do have a god concept, or even many. god concepts. And so does Jack or he wouldn't know what the word means.

I have stored away many, yes - but what I said was I don't have my own. So the (rather trite) theist question to atheists: "what god don't you believe in" doesn't, in my case, have an answer other than all the ones I've heard of so far....

[Gonnagle]

Dear Stranger,

Trite, well thank you! but if it is all the same to you I will continue to be trite, why! because I want to know, to understand.

On this forum the amount of times I and other theists are told, what is it you don't understand about the word atheism, well news flash, I understand the word atheism it is the atheist that baffles me.

The last time I tried to have a discussion about how atheism affects the life of an atheist I realised that I was on shaky ground, I was asking them about something which is quite personal, especially those who had travelled from theism into atheism.

So for me, asking them which God/gods they don't believe in ( for me ) is interesting and furthers my understanding of the atheist.

Atheism does affect how you conduct your life, to deny this is ( in my honest opinion ) slightly dishonest, this forum and the old Beeb is littered with stories regarding how some ( I said some ) atheists have rebelled against theism, taking children out of Prayer time or school assembly which has a religious take, Christians are often accused of child indoctrination, but is this true of atheists.

So to continue, if I may!!

I would first like to thank Jeremyp for being open about his thoughts on God, I think when most atheists think on God it is the Christian definition that comes to mind.

my minimal concept of God is "intelligent being that created the Universe".

Also

The idea that God is the creator of our Universe is probably common to all

I would like to ask other atheists if they agree with Jeremyp, is your first thought of God Jeremyp's definition.

Jack Knaves replies are interesting.

This just goes to show how nebulous and flexible the word God is to various people, that such extremes can be had for one word; making it meaningless.

Yes I have come across such ideas of God. Shaker did a pantheistic thread fairly recently, but the ideas of pantheism have been know to me for decades. What is said in the quote you have provided pretty much makes that God almost synonymous with the laws of physics, or at least it is an element of it.

This was mentioned in Shakers opening post on Pantheism.

Pantheism is monistic in that it views the universe as composed of only one kind of stuff, the same stuff as modern physics, i.e. matter-energy, but chooses to call this 'God' to express a religiously reverent attitude and reaction toward it.

One of the most common objections to pantheism is linguistic; namely, that to use a word such as 'God' when actually referring to the totality of nature/the universe is both misleading to others and superfluous, since words already exist for those concepts. Arthur Schopenhauer said: "To call the world 'God' is not to explain it; it is only to enrich our language with a superfluous synonym for the word 'world'."

Paul Harrison counters this by saying that for pantheists the word 'God' — the theos in pantheos — is appropriate to use because while it is entirely different from the theos of monotheism, it fulfils the same function; it is a focal point of awe, mystery, wonderment and reverence. Explaining the world is the proper business of science; pantheism is the emotional and aesthetic reaction to that endeavour. Pantheism is predicated upon an emotional reaction to and engagement with the natural world — a nature-based spirituality:

Sorry this is the link to Shakers thread on Pantheism.

http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=11616.0

I see a similarity when I read some atheist postings regarding science/nature, the words awe, mystery and wonderment are used, maybe not reverence, but I think a reverence for science and nature is very appropriate.

Hell! Vlads pin up boy ( sorry other pin up boy ) Prof Brian Cox loves the word miracle, the one I remember is,

It is a miracle that we are even here

You bet your ass dear Prof, it is a miracle! a Super-Natural miracle.

To end, this is my attempt to open up the discussion on what God is or is not, my attempt to understand the mind of the atheist.

Gonnagle.

[Rhiannon]

I teeter on the brink of atheism these days, Gonners, although I identify as a pantheist. I've moved from theism to whaterveritisism (how helpful are labels? not sure).

I don't understand what it is you think would make you on shaky ground when talking to the likes of me. But if you want to understand what I think it is probably best summed up as - this is most likely all there is so we'd better make the most of it. Oh, and we're not particularly important so don't get delusions of grandeur, but don't sweat it either.

[SusanDoris]

Not 'reverence'; respect. Reverence implies lesser/greater, and yes people have widely varying amounts of knowledge and understanding, but no human being is 'better' than any other. I always remember one snooty woman who, when talking of the Somali servants, said, 'But don't you think we are better than they are?'

My concept of God was always, even as a child, an invisible something with, once or twice,  a voice.

Once you know that everything that humans have ever done, or thought, or said, or written has been done 100% by humans, a species which evolved from a common ancestor ape,. then it is impossible to return to a God/god/s belief, especially since scientific knowledge of every sort daily increases, removing more and more of the Goddidit-filled gaps.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Rhiannon,

You are on your own path, we all are, I have absolutely no problem with that, this religious stuff is a very personal journey, I can't be a Vlad/Corrie/Alan Burns/TW /Hope/Brownie Christian, I can only be a Gonnagle type Christian ( although I am right and they are all wrong, and no I have no problem with ego ).

I have no problem talking to you, I suppose I am on some sort of evangelical crusade, but not to convert anyone to Christianity, just to open up a thought of God, I honestly don't understand a complete denial of God ( evidence, evidence ) a higher power, for me it is all there in art, poetry, music, nature, science, hell! the discussions we have had on this forum prove that we are all spiritual and religious creatures but I do know that I fall down when I try to define God.

So just trying to mix the two, atheists and their thoughts, if they have any on God/gods.

Gonnagle.

[Stranger]

Atheism does affect how you conduct your life, to deny this is ( in my honest opinion ) slightly dishonest, this forum and the old Beeb is littered with stories regarding how some ( I said some ) atheists have rebelled against theism, taking children out of Prayer time or school assembly which has a religious take, Christians are often accused of child indoctrination, but is this true of atheists.

You claim "atheism does affect how you conduct your life" and then give a very particular example of a reaction to having faith and then not having it.

Any major change in life is going to affect the way you conduct it - and changing from faith to rationality is certainly a change.

If there is no transition, however, your claim becomes more problematic - some things will be different; if you don't have a faith, you are unlikely to regularly attend a place of worship, for example.

If you think there is more than that then you need to say what you think it is and support it with some evidence.

On your other points:-

I already responded to Jeremy.

On pantheism - I'm basically with Arthur Schopenhauer. I do find awe, mystery and wonderment in nature and science (and mathematics) but see no reason to have another word for it in order to express it. I guess it's a personal choice. If a pantheist's god is the universe then there is ample evidence that their 'god' exists and no faith is needed.

You bet your ass dear Prof, it is a miracle! a Super-Natural miracle.

What does "Super-Natural" mean and how do you know it's a "Super-Natural miracle"?

[Gonnagle]

Dear Stranger,

You claim "atheism does affect how you conduct your life" and then give a very particular example of a reaction to having faith and then not having it.

What!!? not sure what you are asking, there have been examples of people losing their faith and it then returning.

If you think there is more than that then you need to say what you think it is and support it with some evidence.

Evidence for what, a higher power, for me ( I stress for me ) it is the whole, the Universe, the world, Mankind, science, art, poetry, music, but more, my walk through life with Our Lord Jesus.

Super-Natural, supernatural has been done to death on this forum, it can't be proven, but Super-Natural is all around us, the things we take for granted, the sun, the moon, birth, death, the wonder and awe of nature.

A spot of wee Albert says it better than I ever can.

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."

Gonnagle.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Susan,

Respect is a good word but I think reverence is better, it gives science and nature something more.

but no human being is 'better' than any other.

Very true, that is one of the main messages in the Gospels but Our Lord goes further, our role is to serve mankind, in serving mankind we praise God.

My concept of God was always, even as a child, an invisible something with, once or twice,  a voice.

A voice! never had a voice, maybe the repeated mantra in my own head of " told you so".

a species which evolved from a common ancestor ape,.

Ape like Susan, I am almost positive I have that bit about evolution right, ape like.

Gonnagle.

[Stranger]

What!!? not sure what you are asking, there have been examples of people losing their faith and it then returning.

Evidence for what, a higher power, for me ( I stress for me ) it is the whole, the Universe, the world, Mankind, science, art, poetry, music, but more, my walk through life with Our Lord Jesus.

No, I was trying to ascertain how you think atheism affects how people conduct their lives in general (aside from the specific example you gave) and what evidence you had (other than specific examples).

You said

Atheism does affect how you conduct your life, to deny this is ( in my honest opinion ) slightly dishonest, this forum and the old Beeb is littered with stories regarding how some ( I said some ) atheists have rebelled against theism, taking children out of Prayer time or school assembly which has a religious take...

and I was trying to clarify.

Super-Natural, supernatural has been done to death on this forum, it can't be proven, but Super-Natural is all around us, the things we take for granted, the sun, the moon, birth, death, the wonder and awe of nature.

How is that different from natural...?

[Enki]

Gonners,
I refer you to my response 54. To emphasise the point, I don't believe in any particular god, and, yes, I would generally go along with Jeremy's definition of an "intelligent being which created the universe", which to me is very similar to my own idea of "some sort of conscious presence", which I have already stated.

As regards my attitude towards the natural world, like Susan, my word would probably be respect rather than reverence, because the word 'reverence' could suggest some sort connected divinity which I certainly do not feel. I do however, at times, feel a sense of wonder and awe at the sheer complexity of natural things, but never a feeling of any divinity at all. I think the word 'miracle' may well be used in a very loose sense here to describe my emotional reaction at times to the fact that I am simply a part of this natural world, but never in the supernatural sense that you seem to see it. I can't possibly see "the sun, the moon, birth, death, the wonder and awe of nature." in any supernatural way. It seems to me to be a total prostitution of the word 'supernatural'.

However, each to their own.

[Rhiannon]

Gonners, I've had a belief in God - gids, all kinds - and ultimately found them all wanting.

Of course life is mysterious; I don't know what is going to happen when I step outside my front door let alone what made the universe come into being. But there's no reason to think that the answer to any of the mystery is God-shaped.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Stranger,

Ah right! well an example would be Sunday opening, Sunday I presume for atheists is just another day, another would be Bishops in the House of Lords or Christmas, just a holiday, that kind of thinking, and before I am jumped on, not all atheists might think like that, these are just examples.

Super-Natural is no different from natural, it is just my way of expressing its wonder, its awe, I tend to think that we take it for granted, it should be revered, protected, for me, it is a gift from God.

Gonnagle.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Enki,

It seems to me to be a total prostitution of the word 'supernatural'.

Then I am a whore, all nature should be regarded as Super.

Gonnagle.