Is the non existence of God true for everyone.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

We hear atheists and pagans mewling that they are tired of Christians thinking that God might be true for everyone.

Does the atheist who thinks God probably doesn't exist think that is just true for them or would that be true for everyone.

[Maeght]

We hear atheists and pagans mewling that they are tired of Christians thinking that God might be true for everyone.

Does the atheist who thinks God probably doesn't exist think that is just true for them or would that be true for everyone.

You expect to start a sensible discussion by saying that atheists are mewling? Really? No, thought not.

[Shaker]

Gods exist in human minds - god-concepts, if you prefer.

Until somebody can stump up with some evidence that gods exist external to human minds, (some) human minds are the only place where gods are to be found, thus making gods true for those who believe in them - subjectively true and not objectively true independent of what's believed about them.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You expect to start a sensible discussion by saying that atheists are mewling? Really? No, thought not.

Any excuse eh.

[Maeght]

Any excuse eh.

I don't need an excuse not to waste time on a discussion which is clearly not intended to be a serious one.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Gods exist in human minds - god-concepts, if you prefer.

Until somebody can stump up with some evidence that gods exist external to human minds, (some) human minds are the only place where gods are to be found, thus making gods true for those who believe in them - subjectively true and not objectively true independent of what's believed about them.

Do you think though that the probable non existence of God as espoused by many atheists is true for them but not everyone?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

 

I don't need an excuse not to waste time on a discussion which is clearly not intended to be a serious one.

It's very serious since an atheist who complains of Christians thinking God is true for everyone but thinks that the non existence of God is true for everyone is a humbug and full of the brown stuff.

So ....do you think that the non existence of God is true for you or true for everyone?

[Shaker]

Do you think though that the probable non existence of God as espoused by many atheists is true for them but not everyone?

Existence or non-existence are brute facts. Something either exists - actually, independently, objectively exists - or doesn't. If theism were proven the existence of a god would be a brute fact regardless of one's opinion about it. Conversely with atheism. In the absence of such definitive proof there are only opinions - reasoned ones backed up by evidence (or lack thereof), reason and logic, and then the silly ones

The most we can say is what I said in my previous post - god-concepts exist in some human brains and are subjectively true for the holders of that opinion. As we know, though, many theists - not all, but likely most - are unhappy with this minimal definition and are keen to shore up their opinion with claims of objective, external truth 'out there,' even though they're to say the least a bit hazy on what 'out there' actually means.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Existence or non-existence are brute facts. Something either exists - actually, independently, objectively exists - or doesn't. If theism were proven the existence of a god would be a brute fact regardless of one's opinion about it. Conversely with atheism. In the absence of such definitive proof there are only opinions - reasoned ones backed up by evidence (or lack thereof), reason and logic, and then the silly ones

So what do you make of all this true for you stuff then?

[Shaker]

See #2 and #7.

Religion - theism and monotheism especially - has often been an instrument of control, oppression and subjugation. Still is, in some quarters. You don't get power over people by saying "Well it's true for me, but whatever roasts your potatoes, man." You only claim absolute authority - the power of life and death, often - by claiming that your god is independent of your own skull, i.e. is a brute fact externally and objectively true regardless of opinion.

[Maeght]

>:(It's very serious since an atheist who complains of Christians thinking God is true for everyone but thinks that the non existence of God is true for everyone is a humbug and full of the brown stuff.

So ....do you think that the non existence of God is true for you or true for everyone?

A serious discussion doesn't refer to the subject matter but the nature of the discussion taking place of course, but if you are going to take it seriously I'll give it a try.

I have no belief in God, see no reason to believe in God and think the likelihood of God existing to be tiny but not impossible. I understand that other people do believe in God and except their right to do so and do not consider the belief itself to be irrational or based on ignorance, only the arguments used by some to support that belief. No one should assert that their belief is true (reality) and that applies to those who have a positive belief there is no God - this is not the same as having no belief and thinking it unlikely God exists.

So ... interpret that to answer your question how you see fit and let me know.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

A serious discussion doesn't refer to the subject matter but the nature of the discussion taking place of course, but if you are going to take it seriously I'll give it a try.

I have no belief in God, see no reason to believe in God and think the likelihood of God existing to be tiny but not impossible. I understand that other people do believe in God and except their right to do so and do not consider the belief itself to be irrational or based on ignorance, only the arguments used by some to support that belief. No one should assert that their belief is true (reality) and that applies to those who have a positive belief there is no God - this is not the same as having no belief and thinking it unlikely God exists.

So ... interpret that to answer your question how you see fit and let me know.

I think Christians take it as read that their belief is not universally accepted since scripture makes it clear that God has yet to reveal himself manifestly and empirically and unmistakedly and that is in fact where most come from.

People who say that you must believe and try to ram Christianity down people's throats are virtually non existent.

[Sebastian Toe]

People who say that you must believe and try to ram Christianity down people's throats are virtually non existent.

Not on this forum!

[Maeght]

I think Christians take it as read that their belief is not universally accepted since scripture makes it clear that God has yet to reveal himself manifestly and empirically and unmistakedly and that is in fact where most come from.

People who say that you must believe and try to ram Christianity down people's throats are virtually non existent.

I think there are a noticeable number but I'd accept that what you say is true about the vast majority.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

We hear atheists and pagans mewling that they are tired of Christians thinking that God might be true for everyone.

Does the atheist who thinks God probably doesn't exist think that is just true for them or would that be true for everyone.

I think that you don't understand the nature of claims.

The default position is that the claim is not true (or rather not supported), the burden is upon the claimant to support their claims if those claims are meant to be objectively true for all.

If the claim is subjective then no evidence is required.

It's not that I claim there is no God, it's simply the default.

This is nothing special to claims of God it's true for everything.

[Gordon]

I see, Vlad, that this is a follow-on thread to the exchange last night on the 'Why is there no verifiable evidence?' thread, so I may as well re-post here what I said to you there [in #82] - just in case you'd forgotten.

Dear me, Vlad - have you not yet learned that atheism isn't 'true' as such: it is simply a current absence of holding any beliefs in the existence of gods, largely because the proponents of these gods have offered no good reasons for thinking otherwise, although they do specialise in bad reasons (which they seemingly never tire of).

I'm sure this has been pointed out to you many times before.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

Gordon,

Thank you for putting my previous message far more succinctly than I did.

[jeremyp]

We hear atheists and pagans mewling that they are tired of Christians thinking that God might be true for everyone.

Nobody mewls like Vlad.

[Gordon]

Nobody mewls like Vlad.

That would make a great T-shirt design.

[jeremyp]

That would make a great T-shirt design.

Old Vlads never die, they just let their turds go dull.

[jeremyp]

That would make a great T-shirt design.

Vlad went to the Bahamas and all I got was this lousy philosophical naturalism.

[Enki]

Vlad, You say you are asking this seriously.

Fine. In which case you deserve an answer. So, here is mine. Make of it what you will.

I haven't a clue whether any god exists or not, but I have not yet seen any convincing arguments or evidence that one(or more than one) does exist. Hence I do not have any belief in any god(s) whatever. This is my personal position. I am quite happy to accept that others may have a belief in their particular god. They may well be right. I have no means of knowing. I simply state my personal preference of not believing until evidence accrues which will persuade me, at the very least, that their god probably exists.

I do however reserve the right to challenge any arguments that I consider suspect if I so wish, and also to challenge attitudes which consider one's beliefs to be factual or some sort of 'truth' applicable to others without either the necessary evidence, or, at the very least, some sort of intersubjective methodology which can arrive at that evidence. Also, some Christians, in particular, seem to be on a prosletysing kick which often involves so called arguments which are little more than assertions. These I am quite willing to challenge.

For my own part, I do not seek to convert others into being atheistic at all. It is entirely up to them what sort of view they take of the world. I am not in the business of trying to impose my views upon others. Indeed, in some cases, I can quite see that their views give them comfort and support, especially in times of stress.

[Rhiannon]

Mewling... nice.

I'm not sure that there is such a thing as 'truth'. Given that, there are no universal truths. But like Enki I believe that what I see as illogical, inhuman, narcissistic, damaging or unwise beliefs need challenging.

[jeremyp]

Mewling... nice.

I'm not sure that there is such a thing as 'truth'.

Of course there is.  2+2=4

Given that, there are no universal truths.

Yes there are, for example: "a single man in possession of a good fortune must be in want of a wife".

[Rhiannon]

Of course there is.  2+2=4

Yes there are, for example: "a single man in possession of a good fortune must be in want of a wife".

To know that 2+2=4 would require us to know that there is nothing illusory about whatever it is that knows. I'm not sure we can know that.

My true for me for the second would be that he is also in want of a decent prenup, but hey.