Author Topic: Is the non existence of God true for everyone. (Read 22030 times)

jeremyp · « **Reply #25 on:** March 18, 2016, 06:17:12 PM »

Quote from: Rhiannon on March 18, 2016, 05:59:09 PM

To know that 2+2=4 would require us to know that there is nothing illusory about whatever it is that knows. I'm not sure we can know that.

It's a mathematical truth. There's nothing illusory about it.

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My true for me for the second would be that he is also in want of a decent prenup, but hey.

I'm not sure Jane Austen has anything to say about prenups.

Rhiannon · « **Reply #26 on:** March 18, 2016, 06:45:19 PM »

It's not mathematics that I'm suggesting is illusory, but the notion that there is an I who knows it.

If it's a universal truth then Austen applies to today's world as much as her own. Of course the single man in possessed of a fortune might equally be in want of a husband. Or in urgent need of rehab. Or a pig to shag, if he attended one of England's finest educational establishments. Depends very much on the man in question, I'd suggest.

Jack Knave · « **Reply #27 on:** March 18, 2016, 08:02:30 PM »

For me God is just a phenomena of the Unconscious. People just translate that in different ways and by so doing they are just denying the way that some do project that into the God figure or symbol. So the Unconscious is the unifying factor.

Bubbles · « **Reply #28 on:** March 18, 2016, 09:03:23 PM »

What ever is really out there, is true for everyone, what ever that is.

Even if a God of sorts exists, doesn't mean it's one of the ones from our religions.

I don't think we know tbh.

Not really.

jeremyp · « **Reply #29 on:** March 18, 2016, 09:14:05 PM »

Quote from: Rose on March 18, 2016, 09:03:23 PM

What ever is really out there, is true for everyone, what ever that is.

Exactly. If there is a god out there, the fact that I do not believe it does not make it false for me, it just makes me wrong.

Hope · « **Reply #30 on:** March 19, 2016, 04:32:03 PM »

Quote from: Shaker on March 17, 2016, 10:27:08 PM

Gods exist in human minds - god-concepts, if you prefer.

Do you have any evidence for this claim, Shaker?

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Until somebody can stump up with some evidence that gods exist external to human minds, (some) human minds are the only place where gods are to be found, thus making gods true for those who believe in them - subjectively true and not objectively true independent of what's believed about them.

As I've said many times before, there will probably never be a time when purely naturalistic evidence will be provided for a non-natural phenomenon. That doesn't mean that belief in God is not objective.

Gordon · « **Reply #31 on:** March 19, 2016, 04:36:23 PM »

Quote from: Hope on March 19, 2016, 04:32:03 PM

As I've said many times before, there will probably never be a time when purely naturalistic evidence will be provided for a non-natural phenomenon.

Which is why you were asked to provide a non-naturalistic method - which you haven't as yet.

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That doesn't mean that belief in God is not objective.

It does, since all you have is your subjective opinion on the matter.

jeremyp · « **Reply #32 on:** March 19, 2016, 04:39:25 PM »

Quote from: Hope on March 19, 2016, 04:32:03 PM

Do you have any evidence for this claim, Shaker?

It's pretty obvious that gods exist in the human mind. For example, everybody on this board has a god concept.

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As I've said many times before, there will probably never be a time when purely naturalistic evidence will be provided for a non-natural phenomenon. That doesn't mean that belief in God is not objective.

If God is objective, where's the objective evidence?

Shaker · « **Reply #33 on:** March 19, 2016, 05:36:50 PM »

Quote from: Hope on March 19, 2016, 04:32:03 PM

Do you have any evidence for this claim, Shaker?

I wouldn't have thought that I would have had to (a cumbersome phrase in English to be sure, but grammatically sound), but OK. You are one of the set of members of this forum who claim a belief in a god, therefore you must presumably have some sort of concept in your mind of what it is that you claim a belief in - that is unless, of course, that you believe completely randomly and gratuitously in something of which you have no conception. In my experience, in matters religious this is very far from unusual, I can assure you.

If you want to broaden the discussion outside the paramters of this here lil' forum, I've read a great many texts over a great many years by people who claim a belief in a god or gods of some sort and of various permutations. Unless you adhere to the scenario I've just outlined - i.e. people believe completely randomly and gratuitously in something of which they have no conception - presumably you must think that in believing in X they must have some concept in mind of X however rough, ready and rudimentary.

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As I've said many times before, there will probably never be a time when purely naturalistic evidence will be provided for a non-natural phenomenon.

So provide a methodology by which we can all evaluate these claims of non-natural things. You claim that you've provided such a thing elsewhere and have had other people flummoxed by it - so why not do the same here? If it's too long to type out all over again (something I fully understand), no worries - just provide a link to those forums where you claim that you've done so in times past, so that we can all have a look.

Seriously, what's the problem here? How much simpler can we make it for you?

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That doesn't mean that belief in God is not objective.

A belief in God is absolutely objective - that's not the bit which is in dispute. It's the objective existence of the content of that particular belief, the referent of the statement "I believe in God", which is in dispute. And will remain so.

Shaker · « **Reply #34 on:** March 19, 2016, 05:41:31 PM »

Quote from: jeremyp on March 19, 2016, 04:39:25 PM

It's pretty obvious that gods exist in the human mind. For example, everybody on this board has a god concept.

Ahem. A non-cognitivist (I lean in that direction myself) would quibble with this, insofar as it's not at all obvious that everyone (on this board or otherwise) actually does have a god concept that they accept or reject. You often hear it asserted that everyone has a god-concept which they either accept (believe in) or reject (don't believe in), but I'm not at all convinced that this is true. Do they? Really? On what grounds?

Walt Zingmatilder · « **Reply #35 on:** March 19, 2016, 06:27:23 PM »

Quote from: Shaker on March 19, 2016, 05:41:31 PM

Ahem. A non-cognitivist (I lean in that direction myself) would quibble with this, insofar as it's not at all obvious that everyone (on this board or otherwise) actually does have a god concept that they accept or reject. You often hear it asserted that everyone has a god-concept which they either accept (believe in) or reject (don't believe in), but I'm not at all convinced that this is true. Do they? Really? On what grounds?

So you don't have a God concept but you reject everybody elses

Jack Knave · « **Reply #36 on:** March 20, 2016, 05:15:50 PM »

Quote from: Diversity in refuse collecting. on March 19, 2016, 06:27:23 PM

So you don't have a God concept but you reject everybody elses

I don't have a God concept per se but just reject those of the people who do. They are the ones who provide the concepts and the definitions of their Gods which all emanate from their minds or the systems/religions they adhere to. Nothing of their Gods are observed beyond what is expressed by them, those expressions coming solely from their minds, and as such why I reject their claims that God is something external to their thoughts on the issue.

Owlswing · « **Reply #37 on:** March 20, 2016, 05:34:10 PM »

Quote from: Diversity in refuse collecting. on March 17, 2016, 10:20:22 PM

We hear atheists and pagans mewling that they are tired of Christians thinking that God might be true for everyone.

Does the atheist who thinks God probably doesn't exist think that is just true for them or would that be true for everyone.

You are making two separate arguments here. I have no interest whatsoever in what atheists think Christians are doing, not being an atheist.

However to make derogatory comments that are inaccurate turns the description mewling back upon you.

In the case of pagans our case is not the same as that of atheists.

My case, as a pagan, is that Christians DO consider that theirs is the only God and thus MUST be true for everyone as any other deity is false. In fact my deities have been dismissed as "false gods" (note the small "g") on more than one cccasion on this forum by more than one Christian, Ad_O immediately springs to mind.

Thus your comment about "Christians thinking that God might be true for everyone" should, in fact, read "Christians thinking that God must be true for everyone."

Quite apart from that you OP is very much a case of a Christian mewling about atheists and pagans failing to agree with your view of YOUR deity.

Pathetic!

jeremyp · « **Reply #38 on:** March 21, 2016, 01:46:12 AM »

Quote from: Shaker on March 19, 2016, 05:41:31 PM

Ahem. A non-cognitivist (I lean in that direction myself) would quibble with this, insofar as it's not at all obvious that everyone (on this board or otherwise) actually does have a god concept that they accept or reject.

Well we all talk about God so how do we form arguments about God if we don't have a concept of what a god is?

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You often hear it asserted that everyone has a god-concept which they either accept (believe in) or reject (don't believe in), but I'm not at all convinced that this is true. Do they? Really? On what grounds?

I didn't say everyone has a god concept, only the people on this board. That's all you need because Hope challenged you to show that at least one person has the god concept.

jeremyp · « **Reply #39 on:** March 21, 2016, 01:47:40 AM »

Quote from: Jack Knave on March 20, 2016, 05:15:50 PM

I don't have a God concept per se

How do you know what the word means then?

Stranger · « **Reply #40 on:** March 21, 2016, 05:11:12 AM »

Quote from: jeremyp on March 21, 2016, 01:47:40 AM

How do you know what the word means then?

Actually, that's one of the problems in discussions here - the word actually covers a lot of different and often disjoint notions.

I'd say that I don't have my own god concept that I reject but that all the god concepts I've encountered seem absurd for one reason or another.

Gonnagle · « **Reply #41 on:** March 21, 2016, 10:19:27 AM »

Dear Jeremyp,

A concept of God, an abstract idea, a general notion, yes that about sums me up, having Jesus in my life kind of makes the idea, the notion more concrete, very interesting, and yes I think you are right, we all have a notion an abstract idea of what God is, that is the big question ( for me ) what is God?

So Jeremyp, old chum, what is your concept of God, or any atheist, do you have a concept of God, the one you don't believe in.

Gonnagle.

Stranger · « **Reply #42 on:** March 21, 2016, 10:29:53 AM »

Quote from: Gonnagle on March 21, 2016, 10:19:27 AM

...or any atheist, do you have a concept of God, the one you don't believe in.

As indicated above - I have a whole menagerie of gods that I don't believe in (i.e. all the god concepts I have so far encountered).

Sassy · « **Reply #43 on:** March 21, 2016, 10:45:34 AM »

The bible suggests that man disbelieves and believes in God because in the beginning was God.
God made man and lived with man. Does it show any lesser a reason for the existence of God at all in our humanity?
The tower of babel is that how God became a living reality in all places through the world where different languages and ways exist. Even the lost tribes found living isolated from the rest of mankind have a belief in God.

The fact is that the belief in a god exists. But no greater belief than that in the one of the Jews.
A religion where covenants made and God has shown Abraham to have more descendants all over the world as he promised from a time it could not have actually been a forethought for any man.

Non existence of God is less likely given the evidence that mankind has always believed in his existence.
The strongest cast for God is that he was with Man in the beginning at the first creation of mankind.

You cannot argue the position because God is a reality in himself, that does not leave any doubt about that the belief in God exists and has always been with mankind. The thing is can you disprove his existence. The answer is clearly,'NO'.

Shaker · « **Reply #44 on:** March 21, 2016, 10:56:53 AM »

Just about all the main logical fallacies about God and belief therein crammed into one post - that must be nearly a record even for R & E.

Gonnagle · « **Reply #45 on:** March 21, 2016, 11:09:16 AM »

Dear Some Kind of Stranger, ( can I just call you Stranger )

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As indicated above - I have a whole menagerie of gods that I don't believe in (i.e. all the god concepts I have so far encountered).

Yes! and this is my sticking point with atheists ( not atheism ) atheists dismiss any notion of God/gods but have they explored every notion, every idea, do atheists ever consider what God is or is not, did you read Shakers excellent post on Pantheism, did that not make you stop and think, funny thing about that thread, not a lot of atheists joined in that debate, the ones that did were short and sweet.

Atheism, yes, but atheists

I know what I mean

Gonnagle.

Maeght · « **Reply #46 on:** March 21, 2016, 11:21:51 AM »

An atheist saying they have no belief in any gods is a statement of fact about their state of belief. To say that no gods exist is an assertion which must be qualified by what is meant by gods of course.

Gonnagle · « **Reply #47 on:** March 21, 2016, 11:26:40 AM »

Dear Maeght,

Thank you, I will be on the look out for assertions

Gonnagle.

Stranger · « **Reply #48 on:** March 21, 2016, 11:26:45 AM »

Quote from: Gonnagle on March 21, 2016, 11:09:16 AM

Yes! and this is my sticking point with atheists ( not atheism ) atheists dismiss any notion of God/gods but have they explored every notion, every idea, do atheists ever consider what God is or is not...

Two points here.

Firstly, no I haven't explored every notion and idea - I doubt that's even possible in one human lifetime.

Secondly, the question "do atheists ever consider what God is or is not [?]" pre-supposes that there is something to consider, other than ideas in people's minds.

For me 'god' is a label given to a loosely (very loosely) connected set of ideas - all of which, to date, I have found absurd for various reasons. What would be the purpose in trying to invent or seek out more ideas that have been, or could be, labelled 'god'?

Ideas are fine but they can be judged on their own merits, whether or not they have the label 'god' in somebody's mind.

Gonnagle · « **Reply #49 on:** March 21, 2016, 11:42:06 AM »

Dear Stranger,

Fair enough, I will leave you with a quote which I totally agree with.

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Small amounts of philosophy lead to atheism, but larger amounts bring us back to God.

Francis Bacon.

Gonnagle.

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Author Topic: Is the non existence of God true for everyone. (Read 22030 times)

Rhiannon

Bubbles