Author Topic: Praying to 'saints'  (Read 4351 times)

floo

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Praying to 'saints'
« on: March 18, 2016, 12:05:49 PM »
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« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 02:15:50 PM by Nearly Sane »

ippy

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Re: Praying to 'saints'
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2016, 12:44:11 PM »
Why do Catholics pray to Mary and so called 'saints'? It certainly isn't Biblical, so that can't be used as an excuse. Mary, for instance, wasn't regarded as a holy person by her son, he seemed quite dismissive of her and the rest of his family.

Alan Burns might be able to answer this one as he is a Catholic.

Saints, isn't that the nick name for one of our football teams?

ippy

P S Just Googled it, Southampton.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2016, 12:54:48 PM by ippy »

Bubbles

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Re: Praying to 'saints'
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2016, 12:50:03 PM »
Why do Catholics pray to Mary and so called 'saints'? It certainly isn't Biblical, so that can't be used as an excuse. Mary, for instance, wasn't regarded as a holy person by her son, he seemed quite dismissive of her and the rest of his family.

Alan Burns might be able to answer this one as he is a Catholic.

I think the idea is that people who are recognised as saints are closer to God and might be able to interceed on someone's behalf, perhaps they think god skims through prayers as he has a big workload.

So people pray to those who they think might have his ear.

Saints can also be divided into areas they have specialised in

St Christopher for travellers for example.:

floo

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Re: Praying to 'saints'
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2016, 02:43:00 PM »
I think the idea is that people who are recognised as saints are closer to God and might be able to interceed on someone's behalf, perhaps they think god skims through prayers as he has a big workload.

So people pray to those who they think might have his ear.

Saints can also be divided into areas they have specialised in

St Christopher for travellers for example.:

The lives of some of these so called 'saints' don't bear too much scrutiny, like Mother Teresa, who is soon to be one of their ilk. :o

Brownie

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Re: Praying to 'saints'
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2016, 03:27:03 PM »
Plenty of Saints are controversial figures.  St Augustine of Hippo is one as is St Teresa of Avila.  I believe Mother Theresa has now joined their ranks, that will please you  :D.

I never prayed to Saints, or venerated them. The canonisation process seems unnecessary, time and money would be better spent elsewhere.  Some Saints are very interesting and inspiring.  I loved reading about St Therese of Lisieux when I was young - the less sentimental stuff - and a more recent Saint, Maximillian Kolbe certainly deserves an accolade, imo.   However it has never been my belief that we need intermediaries.   On the other hand, it doesn't hurt to ask people to pray for you.
The Catholic Church teaches that anyone in Heaven is a saint (not a capital S) so there are plenty of unsung saints.  We are all called to be saints.

The tradition of veneration of the Virgin Mary seems to have started in the 2ndC.  It's extremely popular, and extravagant, in South American countries and some of it can be compared to earlier, pre-Christian, religion. She is a sort of earth mother figure.  Over here we make less of a deal out of it, some Catholics find it embarrassing and play it down.  Yet is all very dramatic and beautiful in its way, and quite feminine.   The 'high' Church of England go in for a lot of that, understandably in deprived areas where beauty and colour are a stark contrast to drab, poor surroundings.

Pope John Paul ll had a particular devotion to the Virgin Mary.  The Polish church in his time hung onto its traditions, understandable as it was unpopular in the eyes of the state.  He also appreciated her as a mother figure, having lost his own mother at a young age.

I'd have thought you'd have known all this, it has come up so often over the years on forums.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2016, 03:41:11 PM by Brownie »
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ekim

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Re: Praying to 'saints'
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2016, 05:44:28 PM »
There are some Christians who view prayer slightly differently. The 13th Century German Dominican Theologian Meister Eckhart for instance said " People often say to me ‘Pray for me’.  And I think to myself: Why ever do you go out?   Why not stop at home and mine for your own treasure?   For indeed the whole truth resides in you." and St Augustine said "Pray within thyself.   Only first be a temple of God because he in his temple will hear him that prays."

Shaker

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Re: Praying to 'saints'
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2016, 05:45:24 PM »
Interesting fellow, Eckhart. No wonder they slapped a heresy charge on him.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

ekim

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Re: Praying to 'saints'
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2016, 05:48:29 PM »
Even in those days I expect 'Orders must be obeyed at all times' . :)

Brownie

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Re: Praying to 'saints'
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2016, 06:03:20 PM »
There are some Christians who view prayer slightly differently. The 13th Century German Dominican Theologian Meister Eckhart for instance said " People often say to me ‘Pray for me’.  And I think to myself: Why ever do you go out?   Why not stop at home and mine for your own treasure?   For indeed the whole truth resides in you." and St Augustine said "Pray within thyself.   Only first be a temple of God because he in his temple will hear him that prays."

That's how I think and anyway Jesus taught us how to pray.  However asking for the intercession of others doesn't preclude praying directly to God.  I'm sure plenty do both.
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OH MY WORLD!

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Re: Praying to 'saints'
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2016, 06:27:33 PM »
Floo,
Sure doesn't help when some lady sets up a shrine outside her place so people can pray to Mary. Am I right? (snork)

Brownie

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Re: Praying to 'saints'
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2016, 06:48:51 PM »
That's not fair, she didn't do that OMW. 
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OH MY WORLD!

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Re: Praying to 'saints'
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2016, 08:20:50 PM »
Brownie,
Who didn't? You obviously are thinking of somebody else.

Brownie

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Re: Praying to 'saints'
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2016, 09:24:48 PM »
This came up fairly recently and floo denied it OMW.  So best left alone.
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ippy

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Re: Praying to 'saints'
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2016, 10:06:49 PM »
Praying to anything is a pointless thing to do, I suppose those taken in by this religion nonsense it might make them feel a bit better in some way, I feel sure there's plenty of other ways to make yourself feel better that could be a lot more productive.

There's no evidence I know of that proves that prayer actually does anything, other than the above.

ippy


« Last Edit: March 19, 2016, 11:01:38 AM by ippy »

floo

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Re: Praying to 'saints'
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2016, 09:23:35 AM »
That's not fair, she didn't do that OMW.

Thank you, I certainly did NOT, that would have been WRONG, especially as my husband and I didn't believe in it.  It was the media (News of the World) who wrote up the story, even though we refused to give them an interview then that caused an influx of 'pilgrims'. They stood at the field gate hoping for a sighting of Mary, and a cure for their ailments. We couldn't stop them as it was a public right of way to the field. I did however put up a notice asking public to be respectful of our neighbours and not cause any traffic jams!

I am sick to death of OMW's insinuations, which have absolutely NO basis in fact. I have not lied about any of our crazy phenomena. I have always stated we looked for a natural explanation for it as we don't believe in the supernatural. There are plenty of independent witnesses, including six policemen, who have experienced weird things on our property!
« Last Edit: March 19, 2016, 10:43:46 AM by Floo »

Rhiannon

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Re: Praying to 'saints'
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2016, 09:25:55 AM »
In some respects the praying to saints arose out of the pagan tradition of petitioning local deities. You see this in Cornwall for example, where many places (wells and springs especially) have local saints associated with them; these are usually pre- Christian sites where votive offerings would have been made to local deities.

The votive offering tradition is one I've made sure we keep alive as a family by throwing a copper coin into wells or fountains. At the Lakeside shopping centre in Thurrock near where I used to live visitors started throwing coins in one of the large interior fountain pools; the quantity became so huge that the management decided to collect them up regularly and donate them to local charities, which I believe they still do.

Shaker

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Re: Praying to 'saints'
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2016, 09:44:56 AM »
It's the same at the Roman baths in Bath - have done it myself.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Praying to 'saints'
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2016, 09:51:40 AM »
There's a big stone well at our local stately home where we always do. For me it's an important connection to the past, a way of remembering my unknown ancestors from long ago.

Brownie

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Re: Praying to 'saints'
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2016, 11:11:02 AM »
Thank you, I certainly did NOT, that would have been WRONG, especially as my husband and I didn't believe in it.  It was the media (News of the World) who wrote up the story, even though we refused to give them an interview then that caused an influx of 'pilgrims'. They stood at the field gate hoping for a sighting of Mary, and a cure for their ailments. We couldn't stop them as it was a public right of way to the field. I did however put up a notice asking public to be respectful of our neighbours and not cause any traffic jams!

I am sick to death of OMW's insinuations, which have absolutely NO basis in fact. I have not lied about any of our crazy phenomena. I have always stated we looked for a natural explanation for it as we don't believe in the supernatural. There are plenty of independent witnesses, including six policemen, who have experienced weird things on our property!

I wish you had said nothing about it floo.  In my previous post I did say I felt it was best left alone, not that it is up to me to decide what is said and what not.  It's understandable that you want to leave this sort of stuff behind you, it's quite embarrassing, but many of us have known you for a long time.

Anyway, you started this thread about veneration of the Virgin Mary and saints, many have responded and you haven't acknowledged any of the posts or made comments on what has been said yet.
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Bubbles

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Re: Praying to 'saints'
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2016, 06:33:47 PM »
It's the same at the Roman baths in Bath - have done it myself.

Is a shame you can no longer bathe in them, due to some sort of  infection in the waters.


Brownie

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Re: Praying to 'saints'
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2016, 09:16:28 PM »
Rose, it is not a shame that we cannot bathe in the Roman baths if the water carries infection!
I've been there, many years ago.  Love Bath and the baths!  However it was probably always a bit borderline when you consider how many people bathed there and the green slime around the walls of the baths.  It only takes one person to catch something from the water for it to be considered unsafe.
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floo

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Re: Praying to 'saints'
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2016, 08:17:28 AM »
Rose, it is not a shame that we cannot bathe in the Roman baths if the water carries infection!
I've been there, many years ago.  Love Bath and the baths!  However it was probably always a bit borderline when you consider how many people bathed there and the green slime around the walls of the baths.  It only takes one person to catch something from the water for it to be considered unsafe.

When we lived in Bath in the 70s we bathed in the Roman Baths on a few occasions.

Sassy

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Re: Praying to 'saints'
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2016, 09:07:48 AM »
Why do Catholics pray to Mary and so called 'saints'? It certainly isn't Biblical, so that can't be used as an excuse. Mary, for instance, wasn't regarded as a holy person by her son, he seemed quite dismissive of her and the rest of his family.

Alan Burns might be able to answer this one as he is a Catholic.

Though Mary was blessed amongst women Jesus was not dismissive of her.
Quote

25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.

26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

Even suffering on the cross, Jesus showed that side of him that always put others before himself and his own needs and pain.
Not a dismissive son, a loving son and we can see the words of Simeon 34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;

35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.


A mother who knew her child would suffer. Just as you speak against him and your heart is revealed.
Quote

King James Bible
Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

In Christ, all the saved are Saints they are a holy people and priests.
It is only right that we should pray for all the saints the body of Christ.

Sometimes it is about how your perceive the things you read or the things you think you understand.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: Praying to 'saints'
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2016, 09:20:23 AM »
Why do Catholics pray to Mary and so called 'saints'? It certainly isn't Biblical, so that can't be used as an excuse. Mary, for instance, wasn't regarded as a holy person by her son, he seemed quite dismissive of her and the rest of his family.

Alan Burns might be able to answer this one as he is a Catholic.

The Orthodox pray to saints too you know! We ask for their intercession because they are closer to God than we are.

floo

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Re: Praying to 'saints'
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2016, 10:33:51 AM »
The Orthodox pray to saints too you know! We ask for their intercession because they are closer to God than we are.

But are they listening?