Pagan Atheists: Can atheists be Pagans?

[Bubbles]

Pagan Atheists: Yes, we exist, by Stifyn Emrys

http://humanisticpaganism.com/2013/03/03/pagan-atheists-yes-we-exist-by-stifyn-emrys/


I thought that was an interesting blog.

 

[Owlswing]

Pagan Atheists: Yes, we exist, by Stifyn Emrys

http://humanisticpaganism.com/2013/03/03/pagan-atheists-yes-we-exist-by-stifyn-emrys/


I thought that was an interesting blog.

 

Yes an interesting read I agree.

BUT - the figures he produces to back up his propositions etc are based upon 600 replies.

He is in the US, in California, and the estimate of the number of pagans in the US runs between 1 and 2 million, depending upon whose figures you use.

So, based upon the lower figure, his 600 respondents represent approximately 0.06% of pagans in the US, his "whopping" 87% who chose "reverence for nature" as the most important elemant of their paganism is actually 0.052% of American pagans.

I am not going to argue with his arguments for Atheist Pagans but I am not going to get excited or heated about it either.

One author, I forget who, gave a lecture at the Witchfest Gathering in Croydon a few years back to explain the reasons and basis upon which she was a Christian Pagan and a Christian Witch! I did not attend her talk and the reaction of most of those who did was derisive amusement.

People are entitled to call themselves whatever they like, and, from the names some witches call themselves, they do, but as I and Rhi have said on many occasions here paganism is a seriously personal religion and no two paths are the same or, in some cases. anywhere near similar.

This is one of the differences between Christian sects and pagan paths, we still acknowledge those who feel and work differently to us as part of the pagan religion and not like Ad_O's "those in error who are Hell-bound" because they are not Orthodox Christians or, as a Canon of the Church of Ireland told me at my son's wedding, he is considered by some Irish Catholics and Irish Protestants to be a Pagan as I am.

[jeremyp]

Yes an interesting read I agree.

BUT - the figures he produces to back up his propositions etc are based upon 600 replies.

He is in the US, in California, and the estimate of the number of pagans in the US runs between 1 and 2 million, depending upon whose figures you use.

So, based upon the lower figure, his 600 respondents represent approximately 0.06% of pagans in the US, his "whopping" 87% who chose "reverence for nature" as the most important elemant of their paganism is actually 0.052% of American pagans.

Didn't you know? This is the way surveys work. You take a small sample and then extrapolate to the rest of the population.  Now he admits that the sample in his online poll was not scientifically constructed, so it would be wrong to extrapolate his 87% to the entire one to two million, but he doesn't do that. But it is clear that a lot of people do put reverence for nature ahead of worshipping gods. I don't know many pagans but my impression is that the majority of the ones I know would agree with his results.

Actually, I know at least one pagan who says it amounts to the same thing.

[Owlswing]

Didn't you know? This is the way surveys work. You take a small sample and then extrapolate to the rest of the population.  Now he admits that the sample in his online poll was not scientifically constructed, so it would be wrong to extrapolate his 87% to the entire one to two million, but he doesn't do that. But it is clear that a lot of people do put reverence for nature ahead of worshipping gods. I don't know many pagans but my impression is that the majority of the ones I know would agree with his results.

Actually, I know at least one pagan who says it amounts to the same thing.

Sorry JP but I would have to disagree with you!

I know, being one, an awful lot of pagans who would say that his results are worthless due to the small sample; Your comment "it would be wrong to extrapolate his 87% to the entire one to two million, but he doesn't do that. But it is clear that a lot of people do put reverence for nature ahead of worshipping gods" is self-contradictory.  A lot of a very small sample does NOT extrapolte to a very large population - it might if the sample were 1 ot 2 percent, or better still 10 or 20 percent but 0.06 percent . . .

[Stranger]

A lot of a very small sample does NOT extrapolte to a very large population - it might if the sample were 1 ot 2 percent, or better still 10 or 20 percent but 0.06 percent . . .

Actually, it's not that simple. The required sample size depends of what sort of effect you are looking for and what margin of error etc. you want.

Here is an example of a calculator, that assumes you are looking for a certain yes/no opinion. It gives a minimum sample size of 383 for a population of 100,000 (i.e. ~ 0.4%) to get a 95% confidence and a 5% margin of error (details on the page).

http://select-statistics.co.uk/sample-size-calculator-proportion

What was not done here, is to make sure you are getting a random sample of the population, which is why the extrapolation is invalid - not the sample size - although you'd have to calculate and quote the confidence and margin of error.

BTW I didn't know there were pagan atheists - so interesting article - thanks Rose.

[Rhiannon]

I'm a pantheist - and over time I've come to realise I don't recognise the presence of a personal deity in my life. I feel like I'm clinging onto my theism by my fingernails.

Whatever, it is relationship with nature  - not exactly reverence for it - that is at the heart of my paganism. I have a handful of deity-related items but to me they are expressions of human understanding and vision, not divinity.

[Owlswing]

Actually, it's not that simple. The required sample size depends of what sort of effect you are looking for and what margin of error etc. you want.

Here is an example of a calculator, that assumes you are looking for a certain yes/no opinion. It gives a minimum sample size of 383 for a population of 100,000 (i.e. ~ 0.4%) to get a 95% confidence and a 5% margin of error (details on the page).

http://select-statistics.co.uk/sample-size-calculator-proportion

What was not done here, is to make sure you are getting a random sample of the population, which is why the extrapolation is invalid - not the sample size - although you'd have to calculate and quote the confidence and margin of error.

BTW I didn't know there were pagan atheists - so interesting article - thanks Rose.

If the figures you quote are correct all they do is prove that there are lies, there are damned awful lies and then there are statistics - 95% off 0.04% is an accurate indicator - not to me it ain't! 95% of 75%+ yes but not of 0.04%

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Since some atheists have an intense liking for word piracy and hijacking meanings and definitions I would say a pagan atheist is possible in that context.

I can imagine when Christian atheists meet pagan atheists pagans vomit green bile.

[Shaker]

Since some atheists have an intense liking for word piracy and hijacking meanings and definitions I would say a pagan atheist is possible in that context.

Care to explain exactly what's 'piracy' or 'hijacking' about saying that there are non-theist pagans? There's nothing inherently inconsistent or contradictory about the concept. A non-theist theist is obvious nonsense, a contradiction in terms, but an atheist Jew isn't and nor is an atheist pagan.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Care to explain exactly what's 'piracy' or 'hijacking' about saying that there are non-theist pagans? There's nothing inherently inconsistent or contradictory about the concept. A non-theist theist is obvious nonsense, a contradiction in terms, but an atheist Jew isn't and nor is an atheist pagan.

Do what you feel Shakes.

[Shaker]

About what? Atheist pagans? Whether they exist or not? Well they clearly do ... so...?

[Owlswing]

About what? Atheist pagans? Whether they exist or not? Well they clearly do ... so...?

Vlad's depiction of pagans vomit[ing] green bile would seem to me to relate far more to Christians finding out that the bones of Christ have been found in a 2000 year old Judean landfill..

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad's depiction of pagans vomit[ing] green bile would seem to me to relate far more to Christians finding out that the bones of Christ have been found in a 2000 year old Judean landfill..

Jesus mythers wouldn't be too happy either.

[Jack Knave]

I think intellectually an atheist could be a pagan in the sense that they could see how there are forces that transcend the ones we normally encounter. Quantum physics is pretty weird in that respect. But in terms of being a practicing pagan then no because that would make them a plain old pagan.

[Shaker]

I think intellectually an atheist could be a pagan in the sense that they could see how there are forces that transcend the ones we normally encounter. Quantum physics is pretty weird in that respect. But in terms of being a practicing pagan then no because that would make them a plain old pagan.

Not sure about that, given that there are practising, church-going Christians of a non-realist/Sea of Faith Network bent who believe that religion is an entirely human creation and God an idea in human brains. They go through all the motions of Christian practice, but believe that they're participating in a wholly this-worldly endeavour.

They don't call themselves atheists and say that they do believe in God - they just don't think that God has any external, objective existence 'out there' somehow.

[Jack Knave]

Not sure about that, given that there are practising, church-going Christians of a non-realist/Sea of Faith Network bent who believe that religion is an entirely human creation and God an idea in human brains. They go through all the motions of Christian practice, but believe that they're participating in a wholly this-worldly endeavour.

They don't call themselves atheists and say that they do believe in God - they just don't think that God has any external, objective existence 'out there' somehow.

If they don't call themselves atheists then my proposition still holds true. They are practising and don't declare themselves to be atheists, as I basically said. That is, atheists wouldn't, couldn't or shouldn't carry out the rituals that are involved in any religion or deistic theology, though they may ponder on its perspective and implications in an askant way.

[Owlswing]

If they don't call themselves atheists then my proposition still holds true. They are practising and don't declare themselves to be atheists, as I basically said. That is, atheists wouldn't, couldn't or shouldn't carry out the rituals that are involved in any religion or deistic theology, though they may ponder on its perspective and implications in an askant way.

As a practicing Pagan I would say that as far as I am concerned you can think whatever you like. It will make no more difference to my belief and faith than arguing with Sassy or Hope or Vlad on matters of Christian Belief or Floo or Ippy on atheism.

As has been posted above, they can call themselves Pagan Atheists if they wish as what they describe as their belief is what has been called pantheism - its just another name and, from my point of view, as long as they do not turn up at my Covenstead and try to change my belief and the beliefs of the members of my Coven they can call themselves whatevcer they like! 

[Shaker]

Reviving this thread since I got the following book at Christmas Yule:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Books/Godless-Paganism-Voices-Theistic-Pagans-John-Halstead/1329943570/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1484220155&sr=1-1&keywords=godless+paganism

It's a collection of essays - many of them as they're fairly short and it's a substantial book - by various people explaining how they reconcile paganism and non-theism. Highly recommended, if it roasts your spuds.

(Also got Ronald Hutton's Pagan Britain, another excellent read).

[Owlswing]

Reviving this thread since I got the following book at Christmas Yule:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Books/Godless-Paganism-Voices-Theistic-Pagans-John-Halstead/1329943570/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1484220155&sr=1-1&keywords=godless+paganism

It's a collection of essays - many of them as they're fairly short and it's a substantial book - by various people explaining how they reconcile paganism and non-theism. Highly recommended, if it roasts your spuds.

(Also got Ronald Hutton's Pagan Britain, another excellent read).

I've made a note of your recommendation - I'll see if I can get it on Kindle!

Prof Ronald Hutton knows his stuff - he refuses to specify his religious beliefs regarding them as a personal matter but his historical work is such that his courses at Bristol Uni are so over subscribed that to get on one you have to have one on the top 1% of Firsts BA in History.

I would dearly love to see Sassy, Ad_O et al try their nonsense on him!

[Nearly Sane]

I've made a note of your recommendation - I'll see if I can get it on Kindle!

Prof Ronald Hutton knows his stuff - he refuses to specify his religious beliefs regarding them as a personal matter but his historical work is such that his courses at Bristol Uni are so over subscribed that to get on one you have to have one on the top 1% of Firsts BA in History.

I would dearly love to see Sassy, Ad_O et al try their nonsense on him!

Al is working overtime today

[Owlswing]

Al is working overtime today

He works overtime all day every day!

It is his lot and his burden! Poor bastard!