The 'Truth'

[Shaker]

I don't know that there's more than the material; what I believe is that we don't need more than the material.

Hear hear.

[Sassy]

Yipeeee I got her.

Shes cracked!

Royal Evasion... Any idiot could have realised that someone who does not believe in God cannot ask someone else....

OKAY THEN SASSY

You have hooked your audience. Just answer me this; If God made everything who made God?

It is a simple question so please take the time to answer.

It is obvious that God was not made in the teachings of the bible that God is the true immortal.
What really happened was your ignorance of the bible and God came through in astounding measure.
God is a person for whom time has no meaning. He exists in all places and in all times.
A day and a thousand years are the same to him.
So God was not made we were the beings made by God.

Only the created is limited by time but those who have ETERNAL life, like God will live forever.
God is not limited to time and is in all times and places at once. He tells the end from the beginning.


King James Bible
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Before everything and the existence of time....God was...
My question was simple... What God? Because anyone who knew or knew about the God of the bible would not have asked that question.

Ignorance isn't always bliss... is it? Sometimes it is just plain dumb.

[Sassy]

Nice one, LOL!

Fools seldom differ!

[Sassy]

But religion is all about the supernatural (aka woo) so nobody it 'making out' that there is a dichotomy between it and science - it's inevitable because as you rightly say, science doesn't address the supernatural.

So show how the supernatural exists outside of personal subjective experience and there's something to discuss. Otherwise this is just another story.

What God does it show why Science cannot, and will not, ever find the answer to the meaning and creation of life.
One could ask the question:  How does the world exist and the universe with man in it, without any real explanation as to why in Science?

The easiest answer is:- God created it... because there is simply no better answer and God has it all just so in the bible.

We see Moses writes about an order of creation. We see that Darwin writes in his book the same order as the bible says it came into being.. Little clues for those who seek truth however the answer may come about.

We know that crops get their life from soil we plant seeds and it gives us abundance of living things.
Genesis tells us God took some soil and formed a man. But the life came from God breathed into his nostrils.
We also know that in Genesis 3.


17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

God cursed the ground... We see there was a change so that science will never find out God formed a man from the soil/dirt of the earth. But what we can be sure of is that what exists gives ground and truth to the bible and God being the creator because man cannot give any real answer.

[Sassy]

But you don't need religion for those things, Gonners. And look at what I said in the context of the conversation.

I don't know that there's more than the material; what I believe is that we don't need more than the material.

So how can you be a pagan then? Because they don't rely on the material?
Furthermore if your child is seriously ill and all the material elements of treatment are failing them, are you saying you would not pray and ask others to pray and ask God to help and deliver them?

Paganism shows that you do not believe the statement you made to be true.

[Maeght]

We see Moses writes about an order of creation. We see that Darwin writes in his book the same order as the bible says it came into being.. Little clues for those who seek truth however the answer may come about.

What did Darwin write about creation?

[Shaker]

So how can you be a pagan then? Because they don't rely on the material?

Not all pagans are theists or even supernaturalists.

[Rhiannon]

So how can you be a pagan then? Because they don't rely on the material?
Furthermore if your child is seriously ill and all the material elements of treatment are failing them, are you saying you would not pray and ask others to pray and ask God to help and deliver them?

Paganism shows that you do not believe the statement you made to be true.

No, this just shows that you don't know much about paganism.

Incidentally as a thought experiment I tried praying recently, to see what happened, simply out of curiosity. I felt my anxiety shoot up. Won't be trying that one again.

[Sassy]

What did Darwin write about creation?

In Darwins book he kept the order of man and animals in the same order as Genesis 1.
His theory of evolution kept the order of creation of the world and living beings in the same order.
Surely you knew that? I learned that in my teens that Darwin claimed evolution was the same order in creation of Genesis 1.

Does it not amaze you that the earth suddenly had all these new creatures evolving but the truth was that it stopped at it's creation/evolution.

Inmagine saying the world evolved but as soon as all the life at that present time evolved it stopped and what existed just continued.  In the bible we also see how the tower of Babel caused man to be spread all over the world and with different tongues.

But the languages have not much changed. One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit in Acts is that all people present from different nations heard the disciples speak in their own tongues.  Why question me when you cannot question or reason the theory of evolution in an educated way for yourself.

You believe in evolution but missed an epic fact like that... Darwins evolution kept the order of creation the same as Gods word.

[Sassy]

Not all pagans are theists or even supernaturalists.

But that does not change the fact or even make any difference to the fact a Pagan wrote:

Quote from: Rhiannon on Today at 10:07:35 AM
I don't know that there's more than the material; what I believe is that we don't need more than the material.

If she believes she does not NEED more than the MATERIAL, than why be a Pagan.
It belies what she is saying. Paganism is not the material. 

[Khatru]

Wrong the bible tells us the Messiah will bring Gods final word and we are to obey him.
The bible also tells you if you break one law you have broken them all.
As Christ has revealed he who is without sin can cast the first stone.
So people do not stone adulterers because the Son of God has come and shown no one but himself can cast that stone.
He forgives her, and tells her not to sin again... So no we obey God and we accept forgiveness of our sins through Christ and we do as he did, not as your wrong thinking tells you.
How can a sinner justifiably commit murder of another when they are equally guilty in Gods eyes?


You got it wrong again, didn't you. Because NOT every holy book is a book of Prophecy. It does not have prophecies fulfilled.
And if you never read them you cannot comment. Had you read the OT you would understand why your points are so moot when it comes to the NT. But you appear happy to remain looking ignorant and spouting nonsense to all intent and purpose.

The fable of Jesus and the woman taken in adultery was added to the Jesus myth  approximately 350 years after he had died.

If you look at our earliest bibles, you'll see that it doesn't even appear.

It's an after-thought, an embellishment designed to sucker people like you into believing the fable.

[Rhiannon]

Ok, one more time for Sass.

Not all pagans are theists.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Rhiannon,

I don't know that there's more than the material; what I believe is that we don't need more than the material.

Well that has me thinking, we need the material to reach the spiritual, we are all spiritual, we use the material to touch the spiritual, is spiritual, material, spiritual is a feeling, is that material.

I suppose it depends on how we get our spiritual kicks.

Gonnagle.

[Khatru]

Only the created is limited by time but those who have ETERNAL life, like God will live forever.
God is not limited to time and is in all times and places at once. He tells the end from the beginning.

I'm glad I started to save some of my posts, it makes repeating myself easy.

To me, "God" or indeed, gods are religious concepts used to try and explain or account for imagined qualities and substances that cannot be identified in our world any more than leprechauns.

I see it as a category where the whole idea of the supernatural belongs. 

Contrast that with the natural, which I see as covering everything that exists, including what we have yet to discover.

The term "supernatural" gives people a green light to not only make up whatever beings they want but also to endow these beings with self-contradictory and magical abilities.  I see it all the time with believers when they refer to their particular choice of deity as being uncreated and somehow living outside of and unaffected by the passage of time.  Yet their god still thinks and acts inside and outside of our natural realm. 

It's funny but it's often the case that once believers have given their construct a free pass by placing it in the envisioned supernatural realm, they then become quite rigorous about what must be true in the natural world - the only world we know.

From a point of reason, the whole thing comes over to me as a logical nightmare, excused by the one word - "supernatural".  It's a fallacy of special pleading whereby whatever the believer places in this supernatural realm gets excused from the scepticism and scrutiny.

[Sassy]

No, this just shows that you don't know much about paganism.

It isn't paganism in question it is your statement about yourself and Pagansim supports what I have said.
What you said and I quote was:

Quote from: Rhiannon on Today at 10:07:35 AM
I don't know that there's more than the material; what I believe is that we don't need more than the material.

Paganism is not the material... It is based on myths and superstition all manamade about nature and it's forces.
So the material is what you CAN see and feel for real. But Paganism is not a material it is a system of beliefs without evidence.
But your statement was untrue because you do not live as if you only needed the material.

Why not just admit what you wrote was not a true statement of your beliefs?

Here is the basic defintion of Paganism.

Paganism is a term that developed among the Christian community of southern Europe during late antiquity to describe religions other than their own, Judaism, or Islam–the three Abrahamic religions.
Paganism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism
Related topics
It [Wicca] draws upon a diverse set of ancient pagan and 20th century hermetic motifs for its theological structure and ritual practice. Wikipedia
Explore: Wicca
Modern Paganism, or Neo-Paganism, is a modern, Earth-centered religious perspective which borrows and adapts from pre-Christian paganism as well as from contemporary religious thought. paganlibrary.com
Explore: Modern paganism
Yule, A pagan festival also called the Winter Solstice, celebrates the rebirth of the Sun, the Sun God and honors the Horn

Not based on anything material then... Whether modern or old.
You said you ONLY NEED the Material and yet you claim to be Pagan. Your statement was false.

Incidentally as a thought experiment I tried praying recently, to see what happened, simply out of curiosity. I felt my anxiety shoot up. Won't be trying that one again.

Maybe the truth is your issue... You are obviously confused if you claim to only need the material but then you run after paganism. If God did not exist why would your anxiety levels shoot up. In this world we know that anything not belonging to God belongs to the devil.

Surely you can see he did not want you having the peace Christ and God brings through truth and faith.
God is not the author of chaos or anxiety the devil is. From the moment Adam and Eve disobeyed mankind became alone, anxious and afraid. If you prayed the chances are the hold paganism has over you did not want to let you go.
If your paganism did you any good, then why try praying again?

You sound confused and without peace.  You should ask Jesus to show you the way back to God and peace of mind.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Ok, one more time for Sass.

Not all pagans are theists.

In what way then can an atheist be pagan?

[Shaker]

In what way then can an atheist be pagan?

That would take us too far astray on this board and would be better suited to the Pagan Topic - I might even start a thread myself.

For now I would just add that if you examine the writings and thought of non-realists such as Don Cupitt and others it demonstrates that there are people who regard themselves as Christians who are not theists. As with Christians, so with (some) pagans.

[Nearly Sane]

Dear Rhiannon,

Well that has me thinking, we need the material to reach the spiritual, we are all spiritual, we use the material to touch the spiritual, is spiritual, material, spiritual is a feeling, is that material.

I suppose it depends on how we get our spiritual kicks.

Gonnagle.

I think there are, as Shaker has noted as regards Vlad's posts, a surfeit of isms. We seem to have multiple isms suggested for the opposite of materialism, when I don't think it is really clear anyone is such a thing.

We love our little labels but use them as if they are exhaustive descriptions of people rather than the roughest short hand. Better to talk to the person and not the ism.

[Maeght]

In Darwins book he kept the order of man and animals in the same order as Genesis 1.
His theory of evolution kept the order of creation of the world and living beings in the same order.
Surely you knew that? I learned that in my teens that Darwin claimed evolution was the same order in creation of Genesis 1.

Evolution by Natural Selection isn't  about creation but about the way existing life forms changed to give the wide range of different species we see today.

Looking at Genesis 1 the apparent order of creation is first a lifeless planet, light, water etc - which has nothing to do with evolution by natural Selection.

Next it says vegetation, then living creatures in the water and birds in the sky. Then land animals on the next day and then man.

Is that the order that you see reflected in modern scientific understanding? Well there is a general commonality but vegetation and birds are out of order and the creation of man doesn't match our scientific understanding. That life forms started in the seas is a match.

Does it not amaze you that the earth suddenly had all these new creatures evolving but the truth was that it stopped at it's creation/evolution.

Inmagine saying the world evolved but as soon as all the life at that present time evolved it stopped and what existed just continued.

No idea what you mean there - can you explain further?

In the bible we also see how the tower of Babel caused man to be spread all over the world and with different tongues.

But the languages have not much changed. One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit in Acts is that all people present from different nations heard the disciples speak in their own tongues.

Not sure what that's gt to do with it.

Why question me when you cannot question or reason the theory of evolution in an educated way for yourself.

You made a claim - I asked you to give supporting info. That's how discussions work. Your attempt to belittle is a bad habit of yours Sassy - and something you seem to pick others up on. I can certainly talk about the Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection and am educated to degree level, so best if yous tick to a discussion rather than attempting to get personal and belittling people.

You believe in evolution ...

I accept thatToE is the best scientific explanation for the vast number of species on this planet and see it has a vast amount of supporting evidence. I don't have a belief in it in that if scientific evidence was found to invalidate it I would accept that.

... but missed an epic fact like that... Darwins evolution kept the order of creation the same as Gods word.

No, I'm aware there is some general correlation between scientific understanding and the order of creation in Genesis 1. The main interesting point is the idea that life began in the seas, but this isn't enough to argue any special knowledge in Genesis in my view.

[Sassy]

The fable of Jesus and the woman taken in adultery was added to the Jesus myth  approximately 350 years after he had died.

If you look at our earliest bibles, you'll see that it doesn't even appear.

It's an after-thought, an embellishment designed to sucker people like you into believing the fable.

You are completely ignorant when it comes to God and the bible.
You think in the flesh and cannot see with your spirit.

What all believers in God have had since the beginning of time is God and his Spirit.
Through his words and Prophets he has made known his will for mankind and all who believe in him.
You take a myth theory and wave it around as if it actually means something.
Look through the bible and you will see God has always revealed his will to man through the Holy Spirit.
Gods people are living people. People who accept his word as truth and live in the power of the Holy Spirit.
Someone who teaches us and leads us into all truth.

Jesus said:
John 16:13. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Those in Christ do not rely on what is written. They have something far greater as the Prophets of Old. Gods Spirit to guide them. You only have what your flesh has your own reasoning and inability to see what is actually before you. Spiritually blind as Saul/paul WAS. He had to become blind in order to see what was really the truth.

No suckers believing in fables., The children of God receiving what their God promised them.
How do we know Jesus is the Son of God? Because Gods promises to us come true and we receive what he promised through the Prophets a long time ago.

Jeremiah 31:31-34.


31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

We believe what God says about his son. It is this that makes us redeemed and the children of the Most High God.
No self-righteousness, no earning it...just Gods free gift.

Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He wants all to be saved. God keeps his promises..

[Sassy]

Ok, one more time for Sass.

Not all pagans are theists.

Pagan or theist has absolutely NOTHING to do with the statement you made.
I have answered this and you cannot bring theist or atheist into the discussion.

You stated that you believed you ONLY NEEDED THE MATERIAL.

But your statement meant you could not and would not follow paganism if a true statement.

[Sassy]

I am not being drawn into non consequential arguments about creation or evolution.
My post is clear that Darwin kept his order of evolution to the same order a Genesis and Gods creation of animals and man.

You can go off and do as you please. But I am addressing the issues relevant to what I posted and you replied to.

So now we see I was correct it is the end of the discussion on that level.

If you want to ask me about anything else. Then readdress your post and be plain about the issues in relation to God and the bible which you are disagreeing with.

Evolution by Natural Selection isn't  about creation but about the way existing life forms changed to give the wide range of different species we see today.

Looking at Genesis 1 the apparent order of creation is first a lifeless planet, light, water etc - which has nothing to do with evolution by natural Selection.

Next it says vegetation, then living creatures in the water and birds in the sky. Then land animals on the next day and then man.

Is that the order that you see reflected in modern scientific understanding? Well there is a general commonality but vegetation and birds are out of order and the creation of man doesn't match our scientific understanding. That life forms started in the seas is a match.

No idea what you mean there - can you explain further?

Not sure what that's gt to do with it.

You made a claim - I asked you to give supporting info. That's how discussions work. Your attempt to belittle is a bad habit of yours Sassy - and something you seem to pick others up on. I can certainly talk about the Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection and am educated to degree level, so best if yous tick to a discussion rather than attempting to get personal and belittling people.

I accept thatToE is the best scientific explanation for the vast number of species on this planet and see it has a vast amount of supporting evidence. I don't have a belief in it in that if scientific evidence was found to invalidate it I would accept that.

No, I'm aware there is some general correlation between scientific understanding and the order of creation in Genesis 1. The main interesting point is the idea that life began in the seas, but this isn't enough to argue any special knowledge in Genesis in my view.

[Rhiannon]

Pagan or theist has absolutely NOTHING to do with the statement you made.
I have answered this and you cannot bring theist or atheist into the discussion.

You stated that you believed you ONLY NEEDED THE MATERIAL.

But your statement meant you could not and would not follow paganism if a true statement.

Sass, a belief in anything non-material isn't necessary for pagans. It's a very individual thing.

[Shaker]

Try putting it in bold type, she might catch on then.

[Sassy]

Sass, a belief in anything non-material isn't necessary for pagans. It's a very individual thing.

You said you only believed in the MATERIAL and only NEEDED the Material.

Nothing to do with Paganism.