The 'Truth'

[Sassy]

Hope,

Yes: the former group make arguments that are logically coherent; the latter group do not. That means precisely that the thinking of one group has more "validity" than the thinking of the other. Witness for example your love of the negative proof fallacy and your evasions when you're corrected on it.

For pessimism and pride of self and man is what the former group have.
Christ stands for love and for helping your fellow man.
But the former group stand for themselves and for their individual self and not the good of others.]


Who would deny the world what it needs... People who are selfish and self indulgent who see nothing good outside themselves.

Jesus Christ loved God and mankind that he gave his life for his fellow man.

When it boils down to it, the latter care more for their fellow man than the former group.
I believe it makes better sense to be part of the latter than the former.

[trippymonkey]

<Jesus Christ loved God and mankind that he gave his life for his fellow man.>

Don't you mean 'just' his earthly body which means nothing in the end.
Jesus gave up nothing really, sorry !!!
If Jesus is back in the 'same position' He was just before He came to earth then there's no change at all??

[Sassy]

'Soul' is just a label, a useful shorthand for the non-material us we perceive. It's as good a term as any, like 'spirit', but the idea that it is a 'thing' is unproven and, to me, illusory.

See the PRIDE of SELF...

IS UNPROVENAND, TO ME, ULLUSIONARY....

UNPROVEN  what is non-material about a soul and how can it perceived as such if as you say it doesn't exist?

Your confusing your disatisfaction with your life and the soul with your old beliefs. A soul is not necessarily a Christian ONLY held belief.

Truth is you think attacking anything from belief, is detaching yourself from faith.
Self-destruction is not the same as losing faith. You caved into circumstance and your own feeling.
You thought by doing that and giving up faith all your troubles would cease. But you are just stuck in the way you were when you separated yourself from God.

But God has never let you go, are you sure you want to remain in the cold where no one but you ever wanted you to be?

[Sassy]

One of the interesting things about the negative proof fallacy, is that it seems to assume a binary state of affairs.  That is, statements are either true or false.   So if you can't prove that something is false, it is true, the fallacy runs.

But of course, this is not correct.   Many things can be said to be true, false or uncertain or unknown.    Thus if an atheist can't prove that there is no God, this does't mean that there is, but that it's uncertain, (although the atheist may argue that it's implausible or contradictory).

But this non-binary state also seems to apply to incredulity.   For example, someone says, 'I can't see how the brain can produce consciousness', and then goes on to say, therefore God does it.

But again, the middle term is missing, the cause of consciousness is uncertain or unknown.   This doesn't mean that the brain does not produce it!   That's why neuroscientists are working on it.

Another one that pops us - you can't say what happened before the Big Bang, therefore God.  Well, no, it's unknown.

So some theists seem to use black and white thinking a lot; hence, the (mis)statement, you can't prove there is no God, therefore there is.

A lot of nonsense made up by man to try and protect himself from the reality that God is.

What is fact is man exists... what is fact is that so far no new life in the solar system of ours, like ours.
More unexplainable if the life in the otherwise dead void called space.

You can make all the statements you want to make. But you have only you and your pride trying to convince you God does not exist. People who find God they have the most valuable thing a man can know and possess of himself.
They have hope, forgiveness and understanding... which even the atheist and his pride cannot take away from him.

You stick with your mumbo jumbo and we believers will stick with the love and truth of God.
I know who is most satisfied in their lives...

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sassy,

When it boils down to it, the latter care more for their fellow man than the former group.

A highly dubious proposition given the behaviour of these people here, and for that matter given the wider appalling things that have been - and are - done in the world in the name of Christianity.

None of which is relevant though, because the discussion was about the former group using logic that's logically sound and the latter being unable to do so. And that matters because the latter group would have us think their claims of fact to be true, despite being unable to muster an argument to show that they are. You for example when asked to demonstrate your claims without simply quoting chunks from a book reply by quoting chunks from that book. The question you never respond to though is why anyone should share your personal belief that that particular book is truthful or accurate in the first place.

[Sassy]

<Jesus Christ loved God and mankind that he gave his life for his fellow man.>

Don't you mean 'just' his earthly body which means nothing in the end.
Jesus gave up nothing really, sorry !!!
If Jesus is back in the 'same position' He was just before He came to earth then there's no change at all??

Because you want it to be that way does not make it so.

Pride again... It comes before a fall, they say. Story of mankind, isn't. But God does not lie he is truth.
You mistrust everything and everybody. Should you really be trusting your feelings on this subject?
Because basically you are saying what you think and feel is right regardless of what the truth may be.

[floo]

Sassy,

A highly dubious proposition given the behaviour of these people here, and for that matter given the wider appalling things that have been - and are - done in the world in the name of Christianity.

None of which is relevant though, because the discussion was about the former group using logic that's logically sound and the matter being unable to do so. And that matters because the latter group would have us think their claims of fact to be true, despite being unable to muster an argument to show that they are. You for example when asked to demonstrate your claims without simply quoting chunks from a book reply by quoting chunks from that book. The question you never respond to though is why anyone should share your personal belief that that book is truthful or accurate in the first place.

It is truthful and accurate because Sass says so, LOL!

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sassy,

A lot of nonsense made up by man to try and protect himself from the reality that God is.

Wiggs made a reasoned argument. You may or may not think it to be correct, but just asserting it to be "a lot of nonsense" is pointless. If you think his argument to be wrong, then use a counter-argument that undoes it. And if you can't do that, then his argument stands until someone else can.

[~TW~]

Sassy,

Wiggs made a reasoned argument. You may or may not think it to be correct, but just asserting it to be "a lot of nonsense" is pointless. If you think his argument to be wrong, then use a counter-argument that undoes it. And if you can't do that, then his argument stands until someone else can.

  really.
~TW~

[Stranger]

  really.
~TW~

I guess you don't have a counterargument either - what a surprise!   

[~TW~]

I guess you don't have a counterargument either - what a surprise!   

 But I do have a counterargument here it is look around your room and pick something out that made itself. 
    ~TW~

[BeRational]

But I do have a counterargument here it is look around your room and pick something out that made itself. 
    ~TW~

How is that an argument?

[Stranger]

But I do have a counterargument here it is look around your room and pick something out that made itself. 

You seem to have forgotten to include the argument bit.

[Khatru]

No bible contradictions...
Adam placed in a GARDEN God creates for him in Chapter 2. Why not read it instead of believing everything you are told...

And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

He had done everything in preparation.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Bells ringing now? Eden a Garden which God has planted...

9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.

So God created a garden for man to live in which was separate from the rest of what he had created.

Never mind! Your triumph non existent and short live...

I just knew you'd respond along these lines.

You've been sussed, Sass.

Unfortunately for your argument, you neglected to deal with the contradiction.

It still has man before animals and all your screaming and foot-stamping can't change that.

Damn those biblical contradictions!

Ps.  How about going back and facing up to my recent points in the other threads which you ran away from?

[~TW~]

   How about going back and facing up to my recent points in the other threads which you ran away from?

 Try Me
~TW~

[bluehillside Retd.]

TW,

How about going back and facing up to my recent points in the other threads which you ran away from?

You've actually made some points rather than just spewed insults and abuse?

Really

Really really?

Blimey - well that's a first. OK, so what are these "points" that you think you've made, and why do you think them to be rational and well-founded?

[john]

Blue

Don't be unkind at least some things which have been made have been seen in the room. A first step to perceiving reality, perhaps.

[Khatru]

  How about going back and facing up to my recent points in the other threads which you ran away from?

 Try Me
~TW~

What points would they be?

The floor is yours......

[~TW~]

What points would they be?

The floor is yours......

I am not a mind reader you said you had ask Sass questions that she could not answer so try me. 
~TW~

[BeRational]

I am not a mind reader you said you had ask Sass questions that she could not answer so try me. 
~TW~

Why should I believe your god is real, and not just a delusion of yours?

[~TW~]

Why should I believe your god is real, and not just a delusion of yours?

When did I say you had to believe my God is real,is that is a delusion of yours. 
~TW~

[Khatru]

I am not a mind reader you said you had ask Sass questions that she could not answer so try me. 
~TW~

Sorry....misread your post.

I will indeed.

[trippymonkey]

Because you want it to be that way does not make it so.

Pride again... It comes before a fall, they say. Story of mankind, isn't. But God does not lie he is truth.
You mistrust everything and everybody. Should you really be trusting your feelings on this subject?
Because basically you are saying what you think and feel is right regardless of what the truth may be.

You seem to be looking into some weird kind of mirror as all you call the rest of us reflects manifold on you.

[Khatru]

  How about going back and facing up to my recent points in the other threads which you ran away from?

 Try Me
~TW~

OK, let's start with one that Sass refused to answer.

Let the copy and paste begin...

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Psalm 14:1

Do you agree with this statement?

[BeRational]

When did I say you had to believe my God is real,is that is a delusion of yours. 
~TW~

No one said had to. I said why should I believe your God exists, and is not just a delusion.

I take it that you do believe a God exists.

Why do you believe that?