Author Topic: Is Labour in danger of becoming tarnished by those who they attract?  (Read 2076 times)

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25569
    • Tools With A Mission
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/19/why-i-am-becoming-a-jew-and-you-should-too

Is this something that the Labour Party are failing to acknowledge as part of their current make-up?
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33801
Re: Is Labour in danger of becoming tarnished by those who they attract?
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2016, 09:52:56 AM »
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/19/why-i-am-becoming-a-jew-and-you-should-too

Is this something that the Labour Party are failing to acknowledge as part of their current make-up?
Your party is in meltdown mate. Why bring up labour nobodies?
Is anti semitism in the genome of the labour movement...of course not.
Is the Conservative party suffering some potentially fatal auto immune response because of its unusual genetic inheritance? You betcha.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 65796
Re: Is Labour in danger of becoming tarnished by those who they attract?
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2016, 10:02:11 AM »
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/19/why-i-am-becoming-a-jew-and-you-should-too

Is this something that the Labour Party are failing to acknowledge as part of their current make-up?


I looked at the comments on the article and I cannot improve on the following from David Pavett


'The premiss of this article is bizarre. If Nick Cohen wants to declare himself to be Jewish then that is up to him. He knows that this will not be accepted by orthodox Judaism. And, as an atheist he could not go through a conversion acceptable to orthodox Judaism. But if it is something he wants to say then that is his right. Similarly a person of Jewish descent can, if they wish, decide that he or she no longer want to be considered Jewish. The Israeli writer Shlomo Sand carefully explained this in his recent book How I Stopped Being a Jew.

Symbolic claims of identity with those on the receiving end of ethnic, racial or religious prejudice can send a useful message as with the "Je suis Charlie" slogan after the Charlie Hebdo murders. Real identity is another matter.

Taking racism seriously means, in my view, being strongly opposed those who use the charge of racism without substantiating it as a means of getting at people they don't like. Nick Cohen seems to come into that category. He has made a point over a long period of highlighting the blindness if some people on the left to the racist and misogynist views of people and groups with which they make common cause. That is often fair criticism. The problem has been his exaggeration of its extent, the view that it is a rot at the heart of left-wing politics rather than the poor judgement of a few individuals.

I have been active in left-wing politics for 50 years. I consider myself to be very sensitive to signs of ethnic and racial prejudice but in that time I have rarely encountered racist views among others on the left and when they have been expressed, or even just hinted at, they have been immediately jumped on by someone else. Opposing racism has always been a cause for the left and that is why I find so offensive the attempt by Nick Cohen (and Jonathan Freedland in yesterday's Guardian) to make out that the Labour Party (and the left in general) has a problem with Jews.

I agree with Owen Jones {in his Guardian article a few days ago) that if when the issue of anti-Semitism is raised someone responds by talking about Zionism and the wrongs of the Israeli government then that person has a problem with Jews. The thing is though that this reaction is confined to a tiny number of people. I have never come across it face to face but I have seen examples of it in writing. The editor of the Left Labour blog Left Futures (Jon Lansman) recently deleted an entire discussion thread following an article on anti-Semitism because three or four people had reacted in that way. Those same people react in crude and often offensive ways to virtually all discussions. The phenomenon is familiar to all followers of political blogs. It tells us nothing more than that there are are a small number of offensively stupid people who attach themselves to any political movement of the right or left.

What I find absurd about the claims of Nick Cohen and Jonathan Freedland is the animus with which they attack the left when they must know that they great majority on the left are clear-headedly opposed to racism and that this cannot be said with anything like the same confidence of the political right. They must know that the great majority of people involved in combating racism in all its forms at its various levels of expression by research, writing, speaking, demonstrating come from the left and not the right. That is why I find their articles on this subject reprehensible.'

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25569
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: Is Labour in danger of becoming tarnished by those who they attract?
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2016, 01:07:11 PM »
Your party is in meltdown mate. Why bring up labour nobodies?
I wasn't aware that the Green Party are in meltdown, Dirc.

Quote
Is anti semitism in the genome of the labour movement...of course not.
I believe that the premis of the piece is that a party whose leader counts amongst his friends people who hold anti-semitic views and which has just had to expel a member for anti-semitic comments is in danger of being tarnished.  I've never been a Labour supporter, but it would be sad to see such a party go down that route.

Quote
Is the Conservative party suffering some potentially fatal auto immune response because of its unusual genetic inheritance? You betcha.
And what would that genetic inheritance be, D?  At least the debate about Europe and the debates about the Budget issues show a party that has healthy disagreement amongst its members.
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25569
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: Is Labour in danger of becoming tarnished by those who they attract?
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2016, 01:09:15 PM »
'The premiss of this article is bizarre. If Nick Cohen wants to declare himself to be Jewish then that is up to him. He knows that this will not be accepted by orthodox Judaism.
The author of this clearly hasn't read the article properly, as Cohen states towards the end that he isn't planning on becoming a Jew!! 
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Shaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15639
Re: Is Labour in danger of becoming tarnished by those who they attract?
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2016, 01:10:38 PM »
The author of this clearly hasn't read the article properly, as Cohen states towards the end that he isn't planning on becoming a Jew!!
Becoming? He's already Jewish.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25569
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: Is Labour in danger of becoming tarnished by those who they attract?
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2016, 01:21:07 PM »
Becoming? He's already Jewish.
He may be racially - see the surname; but he is not and has never been a practising Jew - by his own admission.
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Shaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15639
Re: Is Labour in danger of becoming tarnished by those who they attract?
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2016, 01:22:54 PM »
He may be racially - see the surname; but he is not and has never been a practising Jew - by his own admission.
You don't have to be - ethnic Jewishness says nothing about your religious affiliation, if any. Freud, Woody Allen, Stephen Fry, Rachel Riley - all Jewish, all atheists.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25569
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: Is Labour in danger of becoming tarnished by those who they attract?
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2016, 01:35:48 PM »
You don't have to be - ethnic Jewishness says nothing about your religious affiliation, if any. Freud, Woody Allen, Stephen Fry, Rachel Riley - all Jewish, all atheists.
Precisely, Shakes.  Cohen is 'complaining' (if that's the right word) about the way in which Labour is beginning to edge towards anti-semitism in its support of Palestinian independence - Corbyn has shared a number of stages over the years with staunch supporters of groups such as Hamas, one of which aims is to destroy Israel.
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Shaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15639
Re: Is Labour in danger of becoming tarnished by those who they attract?
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2016, 01:40:07 PM »
I agree that anti-Israel sentiment and blind support of the Palestinian cause amongst many left-wingers is one of the most curious features of left-leaning politics, especially when you take a long, hard look at the politics and religion that underpins groups such as Hamas and what they do to their own people as well as Israelis. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, I guess.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.