Author Topic: Is mindfulness dangerous?  (Read 1796 times)

Shaker

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Is mindfulness dangerous?
« on: March 20, 2016, 03:29:34 PM »
« Last Edit: March 20, 2016, 03:43:30 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Is mindfulness dangerous?
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2016, 03:33:46 PM »
I'll have a look st the links but I thought it wasn't good for people with bipolar and IIRC epilepsy.

Shaker

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Re: Is mindfulness dangerous?
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2016, 03:37:40 PM »
I'll have a look st the links but I thought it wasn't good for people with bipolar and IIRC epilepsy.
More to it than that - it can apparently induce some pretty harrowing emotional disturbances in some individuals, but, like cannabis for example, it doesn't cause these things out of the blue but acts as a trigger for the already susceptible.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Is mindfulness dangerous?
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2016, 03:43:51 PM »
Only read the first link so far.

I'm not remotely surprised about the problems with meditation courses. Having read several accounts of them they really are about losing one's own identity - and the techniques used aren't a million miles from those used by some cults.

Sriram

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Re: Is mindfulness dangerous?
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2016, 03:45:52 PM »

Not bad...Shaker. That's actually true.

Yoga and meditations are meant to be strictly supervised and taught according to a persons mental, psychological and spiritual development.  The kind of mass sessions that people nowadays have is dangerous and not traditionally advocated.



Rhiannon

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Re: Is mindfulness dangerous?
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2016, 03:49:34 PM »
The other thing I'm noticing is no distinction being made between mindfulness meditation and doing things mindfully ie living in the moment, smelling the roses.

SusanDoris

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Re: Is mindfulness dangerous?
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2016, 03:59:34 PM »
I haven't gone to the OP links, but from what I have heard about this 'mindfulness' idea, I do wonder whether it will perhaps cause more problems than its promoters think it will solve.
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Sriram

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Re: Is mindfulness dangerous?
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2016, 04:03:21 PM »
The other thing I'm noticing is no distinction being made between mindfulness meditation and doing things mindfully ie living in the moment, smelling the roses.


Actually mindfulness meditation is meant to enable mindful living. Nothing more.  Mindful living represents a disciplined mind that is not trapped in desires, fears and imagination.


Problem is that everyone is not at a stage where they can learn to discipline their minds directly. In most cases they will feel suffocated and torn between the two aspects of their personality. Religious rituals and such means are often better for many people.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2016, 04:05:28 PM by Sriram »

ekim

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Re: Is mindfulness dangerous?
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2016, 04:08:06 PM »
It's probably a question which can be posed about anything and one could find anecdotal evidence to support its benefits for some and contraindications for others.  Is aspirin dangerous, are peanuts dangerous? 

wigginhall

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Re: Is mindfulness dangerous?
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2016, 04:15:26 PM »
There is some evidence that it's dangerous for some people, esp. vulnerable people.  But then meditation itself can be.   I used to help run meditation retreats, and we used to filter out people who seemed frail mentally.  And I also remember people being pulled off retreats, as they had started to 'depersonalize', or some others had started to sound very strange.   Usually, if they go off to rest, they are OK.

But then therapy itself is not for everyone.   For example, people who have suffered some kind of trauma, e.g. a car crash or an earthquake, are not now automatically advised to do counselling, as some people are better off not.
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Rhiannon

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Re: Is mindfulness dangerous?
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2016, 04:19:29 PM »
I know someone who teaches New Age stuff, and she had someone have a psychotic episode when visualising archangels.


Shaker

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Re: Is mindfulness dangerous?
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2016, 04:26:06 PM »
I haven't gone to the OP links, but from what I have heard about this 'mindfulness' idea, I do wonder whether it will perhaps cause more problems than its promoters think it will solve.
Not more problems as the rates of those experiencing difficulties are low - one link quotes 7% for example. But clearly it's not for everyone and some people are going to be prone to difficulties. A book by Sam Harris that I read recently, discussing hallucinogenic drugs but the principle is the same, makes it clear that there are some people who can't afford to give the anchor of their sanity even the slightest tug.

My experiences with samatha meditation over a good many years have been almost uniformly positive but even there, there have been a few grim and gruelling episodes.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2016, 05:44:09 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

wigginhall

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Re: Is mindfulness dangerous?
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2016, 04:28:45 PM »
Yes, I quit doing Zen in a serious way, as it was killing me physically, and sometimes I couldn't sleep for days after a retreat.   Anno domini. 
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Shaker

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Re: Is mindfulness dangerous?
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2016, 05:55:06 PM »
But then therapy itself is not for everyone.   For example, people who have suffered some kind of trauma, e.g. a car crash or an earthquake, are not now automatically advised to do counselling, as some people are better off not.
I've read similar things that challenge the received wisdom that bottling things up is always bad and letting it all out always good. In particular one study found that some of the survivors of 9/11 who kept their experiences to themselves, not sharing them with anyone else, fared better (lower rates of depression/anxiety/PTSD, nightmares, flashbacks etc.) than those in therapy.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Is mindfulness dangerous?
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2016, 06:01:51 PM »
Yes, there's no one size fits all.

And the kind of therapy probably matters - a form that equips you to move forward is presumably a better bet than one that encourages reliving traumatic events.

Jack Knave

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Re: Is mindfulness dangerous?
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2016, 08:29:16 PM »
I've read similar things that challenge the received wisdom that bottling things up is always bad and letting it all out always good. In particular one study found that some of the survivors of 9/11 who kept their experiences to themselves, not sharing them with anyone else, fared better (lower rates of depression/anxiety/PTSD, nightmares, flashbacks etc.) than those in therapy.
I've heard about research suggesting playing computer games when ever bad memories come up as the mind can only hold a small number of subjects at the same time, so by playing games at these times the memory of a trauma isn't allowed to form strong links or connections.

Brownie

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Re: Is mindfulness dangerous?
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2016, 05:50:52 PM »
I actually discussed 'Mindfulness' today with a psychotherapist, someone very well qualified and experienced in all aspects.  I brought the subject up as I had ''seen it mentioned on the internet''.  He told me it was little different to what most counsellors/therapists practice, ie it entails focusing in detail on actions that we often take for granted.  He put some M&Ms in a dish and asked me to pick one, which I did.  The he asked me to describe it - I said it was not quite round, more baseball or rugby ball shaped, shiny with a reflection from the sun through the window, when the M was above the shiny-reflective bit, it looked cheerful.  He asked me why I had chosen a brown one and I said, truthfully, that I picked the first one that came to hand.  He suggested I eat it - well I don't like peanuts, which I said, but I put it in my mouth and described it as smooth, tasted sweet and that I imagined it would be crunchy, and I like ''Crunchy''.  I did bite into it and was correct.   My friend said 'Mindfulness' was examining in detail things we take for granted.  Picking up a sweet and eating it is something we often take for granted but obviously there are more, deeper or serious, things we take for granted without examining.
When I came home I went to the loo and wondered if I should examine that in detail but I didn't  :D, however I can imagine there are things we do routinely that we just take for granted and they may be things that we really dislike, eg we may go to work every day to a job which makes us feel devalued, unhappy;  we may put a brave face on a relationship that could really do with some honestly.

I didn't discuss people going potty or committing suicide because of 'Mindfulness', but it is a technique used in dealing with clinical depression and the fact is that many depressives will find it difficult to face up to things and some are suicidal already.  So I do not see 'Mindfulness' as a dangerous technique in itself.  I am speaking as someone who has had a diagnosis of Clinical Depression.
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Jack Knave

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Re: Is mindfulness dangerous?
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2016, 01:21:45 PM »
I actually discussed 'Mindfulness' today with a psychotherapist, someone very well qualified and experienced in all aspects.  I brought the subject up as I had ''seen it mentioned on the internet''.  He told me it was little different to what most counsellors/therapists practice, ie it entails focusing in detail on actions that we often take for granted.  He put some M&Ms in a dish and asked me to pick one, which I did.  The he asked me to describe it - I said it was not quite round, more baseball or rugby ball shaped, shiny with a reflection from the sun through the window, when the M was above the shiny-reflective bit, it looked cheerful.  He asked me why I had chosen a brown one and I said, truthfully, that I picked the first one that came to hand.  He suggested I eat it - well I don't like peanuts, which I said, but I put it in my mouth and described it as smooth, tasted sweet and that I imagined it would be crunchy, and I like ''Crunchy''.  I did bite into it and was correct.   My friend said 'Mindfulness' was examining in detail things we take for granted.  Picking up a sweet and eating it is something we often take for granted but obviously there are more, deeper or serious, things we take for granted without examining.
When I came home I went to the loo and wondered if I should examine that in detail but I didn't  :D, however I can imagine there are things we do routinely that we just take for granted and they may be things that we really dislike, eg we may go to work every day to a job which makes us feel devalued, unhappy;  we may put a brave face on a relationship that could really do with some honestly.

I didn't discuss people going potty or committing suicide because of 'Mindfulness', but it is a technique used in dealing with clinical depression and the fact is that many depressives will find it difficult to face up to things and some are suicidal already.  So I do not see 'Mindfulness' as a dangerous technique in itself.  I am speaking as someone who has had a diagnosis of Clinical Depression.
I do that kind of thing anyway but I have the time to do it. I didn't when I was younger and working, and all that, as life tends to be one hectic rush, so I guess for those being dragged through the rigours of daily life I can see how some kind of standing back and seeing ones life in a calmer way, and perhaps reassessing things, may be useful.

Brownie

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Re: Is mindfulness dangerous?
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2016, 06:01:42 PM »
Yes Jack, that's how I see it and am glad you do it now you have time but I think some, even with time, do not do it.  They can be entrenched in a way of thinking or behaviour and do not challenge either of them.  They might be healthier if they did.
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us