Author Topic: Are sins like homosexuality still condemned in the New Covenant of Christ?  (Read 79901 times)

Aruntraveller

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Anything else is not only unnatural but dishonouring of their bodies,

Sass

This is what Spud thinks of me.

I'm unnatural - and apparently dishonouring my body (although a chance would be a fine thing  ;))

So he is making judgements based on a belief that procreation is the only reason for sex. A judgement. And what does your book say about judgements?
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

splashscuba

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Sass

This is what Spud thinks of me.

I'm unnatural - and apparently dishonouring my body (although a chance would be a fine thing  ;))

So he is making judgements based on a belief that procreation is the only reason for sex. A judgement. And what does your book say about judgements?
He's sucking the fun right out of it
I have an infinite number of belief systems cos there are an infinite number of things I don't believe in.

I respect your right to believe whatever you want. I don't have to respect your beliefs.

floo

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Sass has really surpassed herself this morning with her crazy posts! ::)

Shaker

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The truth is that sexual behaviour being acceptable or permissible is a chosen way.
This isn't even English.

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In truth a man can stick his willy anywhere. But it won't make it natural.
In a naturalistic universe, which is the only kind of which I have any knowledge, everything is by definition natural.

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Spud is a Christian so we both know that he believes only sex between a man and woman, a married couple is the natural and normal way for him. When asked for evidence it is the normal and natural way in his faith and the world. We see he uses the example of man and woman having sexual intercourse being able to procreate.
Plenty can't procreate; plenty do not wish to.

The interesting thing is that further up-thread Spud tellingly - perhaps rashly, mistakenly - conceded that sex isn't all about reproduction, yet later regaled us with his opinion that only sexual behaviour open to reproduction is permissible.

In other words, he seems, to say the least of it, rather confused as to what it is he purports to believe.

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But nonetheless, he has given evidence independent of his faith
I suggest you cast an eye over reply #508:

Quote from: Spud
Anything else is not only unnatural but dishonouring of their bodies, according to Romans 1:24-27.

You will have to tell us whether that strikes you as independent of his faith.

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Our lusts are not always leading us in the right way. A man who lusts after a woman and then attacks and rapes her.
Is that sex really natural is it a loving and committed relationship or a consensual act?
No, that's rape. But then so much of the sexual expression that Spud regards as impermissible is in a loving and committed relationship and is entirely consensual - childless by choice couples, infertile couples, gay couples everywhere.
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Does the fact he can perform the act make it natural?
Yes. Natural doesn't inevitably or inherently equal right, good, true or desirable - that's Spud's fallacy.
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As humans we make choices and we choose our partners.
Certainly we do when we are given the freedom to do so, which often means getting religion out of the way first.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2016, 01:12:50 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

wigginhall

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He's sucking the fun right out of it

I would say that sucking is natural, and blowing is unnatural.   Having said that, after a few vodkas, it's hard to tell the difference, but who cares.     
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Dicky Underpants

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I would say that sucking is natural, and blowing is unnatural.   Having said that, after a few vodkas, it's hard to tell the difference, but who cares.   

Odd that the second term has come to refer to the action alluded to, though :)
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Spud

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This isn't even English.
In a naturalistic universe, which is the only kind of which I have any knowledge, everything is by definition natural.
Plenty can't procreate; plenty do not wish to.

The interesting thing is that further up-thread Spud tellingly - perhaps rashly, mistakenly - conceded that sex isn't all about reproduction, yet later regaled us with his opinion that only sexual behaviour open to reproduction is permissible.


In other words, he seems, to say the least of it, rather confused as to what it is he purports to believe.
I suggest you cast an eye over reply #508:

You will have to tell us whether that strikes you as independent of his faith.
No, that's rape. But then so much of the sexual expression that Spud regards as impermissible is in a loving and committed relationship and is entirely consensual - childless by choice couples, infertile couples, gay couples everywhere.Yes. Natural doesn't inevitably or inherently equal right, good, true or desirable - that's Spud's fallacy.Certainly we do when we are given the freedom to do so, which often means getting religion out of the way first.

Regarding what I've underlined. I did say before that apparently, from nature's perspective, the pleasure of sex is what entices us to want it, and this in turn increases the likelihood of reproducing. I think this is an objective perspective on the subject.

From a sociological perspective, we need to have reproduction to ensure our survival. But it has to be within certain parameters. Hence we have marriage which reduces adultery so that offspring are given the greatest chance of survival. The sexual appetite has to be restrained (chastity). Some activities which might feel natural, aren't good for society or the individual. Some which seem natural are unnatural even by nature's standards. Adultery might feel right, but restraint would be more in the interests of the whole family.
Homosexuality in animals can be described as natural but actually it is unnatural because it is contrary to how the body is designed to work.
Sex in an infertile couple is natural because it is a natural act, being the same act that brings about procreation. It also unifies a man and a woman, which is good for society because it is consistent with the structure of the family unit.
Sex in homosexuals is unnatural because it is an act that can never bring about procreation. It is bad for society because it is contrary to the structure of the family.
Please don't think I am looking down on anyone. I'm a boring bachelor, a spud not a stud, and would prefer to be talking about Isaiah or something.

Aruntraveller

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It is bad for society because it is contrary to the structure of the family.

No it isn't.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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I thought the issue was less about procreation or homosexuality as an identity, and more about the risk of contact with faeces during sodomy (faeces is natural but pretty disgusting and a source of infection) as well as the tissues in the anus being more liable to tears as they don't have the natural lubrication required, which increases the risk of spreading certain diseases.

Hence, the ban on men who have had sex with men (whether heterosexual, homosexual bisexual or anywhere in between) donating blood for 12 months, based on statistical analysis of the risk to recepients of blood.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/features/why-cant-gay-men-donate-blood-10426364.html
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Shaker

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From a sociological perspective, we need to have reproduction to ensure our survival.

Not only is our survival not in peril, our proliferation is making a bollocks of the planet not only for ourselves but every other species on it. With a human population still undergoing an unstoppable rise any argument predicated on the survival of the species, as though we were still a gaggle of hairy hominids on the savannah undergoing a disastrous population bottleneck, is a bad joke. That scenario occurred at least once - it's thought that at one point around 70,000 years ago the human population crashed to anywhere between 10,000 and 2,000 individuals - but extinction through low numbers is now really not the issue.

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Homosexuality in animals can be described as natural but actually it is unnatural because it is contrary to how the body is designed to work.

Except that it wasn't designed. Form isn't always function and you still can't get that ought (or, as is invariably the case, ought not) from an is.
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Sex in an infertile couple is natural because it is a natural act, being the same act that brings about procreation.
Unless you don't understand the concept of infertility, that is an act from which no procreation will result.
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It also unifies a man and a woman, which is good for society because it is consistent with the structure of the family unit.
Now we're getting somewhere - possibly. This is exactly and precisely what I've already said - sex is a bonding exercise between two people (or more, if you're lucky). Except that rather than your narrow parameters, it's also a bonding exercise between people who don't have a family, don't want a family, can't have a family, gay couples, etc.
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Sex in homosexuals is unnatural because it is an act that can never bring about procreation.
And this is precisely the spot where your would-be argument collapses, since you draw an entirely artificial and ad hoc distinction between two scenarios with precisely the same effect or outcome, or rather the lack of one. Heterosexual sex between two people who can't reproduce (one or both parties are infertile) gets merrily waved through, but homosexual sex - with precisely the same result or non-result - is impermissible, according to you. This glaring inconsistency can only stem from animus against homosexuality, which as we know is mostly religiously inspired.

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It is bad for society because it is contrary to the structure of the family.
I don't fetishise families as so many seem to, for one thing. There are a billion and one ways of living, enough to suit all kinds of people in all their dizzying variety, of which a family is only one kind. It suits some, but it doesn't suit others.

As for society, my conception of a happy as well as fair and just society is one that extends to its citizens the greatest possible personal freedom and the maturity to treat them as competent actors capable of directing the course of their own lives and finding their own happiness in their own way according to their lights. People like Hope call this rampant individualism; correct. It is. The sort of social cohesion that he has talked about may have some good points, but the bad outweighs the good; it has a tendency to squash individual freedom and to enforce at best a bland and invariably hypocritical conformity and at worst oppression, overt (such as we see in strongly religious societies - Saudi Arabia's morality police, for example) or covert, through what John Stuart Mill called 'the tyranny of the majority.' In passing I would add that in On Liberty, as near to a Bible as I've ever had (or one of them) Mill talks at length about how strong, mature, confident societies have to cast off that sort of explicit or implicit tyranny and not merely tolerate but positively encourage diversity and dissent.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2016, 10:41:35 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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It's entirely possible that once there's a Mrs Spud, HRH might find it somewhat less important to adhere to his rule book as to what belongs where.

Shaker

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Crossed my mind too  ;)
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Owlswing

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It's entirely possible that once there's a Mrs Spud, HRH might find it somewhat less important to adhere to his rule book as to what belongs where.


You wish.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

jeremyp

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Does anybody else find it somewhat odd that the Christians who think we are something special in "God's creation" are the ones appealing to base biological function here?
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floo

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It's entirely possible that once there's a Mrs Spud, HRH might find it somewhat less important to adhere to his rule book as to what belongs where.

Good point.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Shaker,

I see the counter-argument to Spud seems to be a lot of equally pie in the sky wishful thinking and beliefs about free societies where people do what they are supposed to do and find individual happiness while not negatively impacting on society.

The rise in mental and emotional problems amongst young people in this increasingly liberal and individual-centric society suggests that your faith in your mantra that individualism leads to happiness needs a bit of a re-think.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

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Shaker

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Shaker,

I see the counter-argument to Spud seems to be a lot of equally pie in the sky wishful thinking and beliefs about free societies where people do what they are supposed to do and find individual happiness while not negatively impacting on society.
As you have evidently missed, the counter-argument to Spud is the correct pointing out that his pseudo-arguments rest on a number of assertions which are themselves predicated on various logical fallacies, one in particular, by people who understand these fallacies and can correctly identify them.

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The rise in mental and emotional problems amongst young people in this increasingly liberal and individual-centric society suggests that your faith in your mantra that individualism leads to happiness needs a bit of a re-think.
No, I've already thought about it, thank you.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Not sure what was written pages ago - but I read your reply #534 and commented on that - sorry i should have made that clearer.

Your view that more individualism leads to increased happiness seems simplistic idealism and isn't supported by the evidence of rising mental health problems since the 1970s in an increasingly liberal society like the UK. There may be many other factors contributing to this rise but it shows that individualism isn't some magic cure that should be aspired to in order to alleviate poverty, crime, unemployment, inequality etc - which are pretty significant problems today.

Individualism does work in some instances - it allows me to reject a lot of the liberal parenting culture that tries to promote tolerance of individual freedom for my children as a path to happiness. As I often point out to them if they want to be part of a family they need to be useful and productive contributors to the family's needs and values, regardless of how happy doing their own thing makes them. It is of course their choice if they want to continue being part of the family - they have that freedom.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Aruntraveller

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As I often point out to them if they want to be part of a family they need to be useful and productive contributors to the family's needs and values, regardless of how happy doing their own thing makes them

But what if the values of the family run counter to the needs of the individual - even though that individual may want to be a useful and productive contributor to the family. How do you square the circle of a gay person in a homophobic family?
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

floo

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Not sure what was written pages ago - but I read your reply #534 and commented on that - sorry i should have made that clearer.

Your view that more individualism leads to increased happiness seems simplistic idealism and isn't supported by the evidence of rising mental health problems since the 1970s in an increasingly liberal society like the UK. There may be many other factors contributing to this rise but it shows that individualism isn't some magic cure that should be aspired to in order to alleviate poverty, crime, unemployment, inequality etc - which are pretty significant problems today.

Individualism does work in some instances - it allows me to reject a lot of the liberal parenting culture that tries to promote tolerance of individual freedom for my children as a path to happiness. As I often point out to them if they want to be part of a family they need to be useful and productive contributors to the family's needs and values, regardless of how happy doing their own thing makes them. It is of course their choice if they want to continue being part of the family - they have that freedom.

If one is part of a family ALL members should be making a contribution, to try to make it work, but one should also look out for one's own interests too.

I do my best to be there for my brain damaged husband, but at the same time I ensure that I get plenty of me time too, otherwise I would go completely crazy. I also insist my husband does his bit to help with the chores etc.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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But what if the values of the family run counter to the needs of the individual - even though that individual may want to be a useful and productive contributor to the family. How do you square the circle of a gay person in a homophobic family?
Well, a few points in relation to that - my parents are Hindu, I was an atheist for about 10 years and have been a Muslim for over 20 years and I wasn't expecting my parents to just accept my choices - it's up to them to decide if my contributions to the family induce them to accommodate the changes in behaviour that my different values have created. They weigh up the whole person and decide if having me in their lives brings them more happiness than pain. I would encourage my kids to take the same approach with me, their parent, and I would take that approach with them.

A Hindu friend of my parents was very upset on finding out her son was gay - she still mourns the loss of a future daughter-in-law and feels he is missing out on a lot in life. Initially she didn't want to see him but gradually she realised he brought so much happiness to her life that she could not cut him off. She says his spouse is wonderful  - he would be perfect, if only he was a she - ah well.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

floo

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Well, a few points in relation to that - my parents are Hindu, I was an atheist for about 10 years and have been a Muslim for over 20 years and I wasn't expecting my parents to just accept my choices - it's up to them to decide if my contributions to the family induce them to accommodate the changes in behaviour that my different values have created. They weigh up the whole person and decide if having me in their lives brings them more happiness than pain. I would encourage my kids to take the same approach with me, their parent, and I would take that approach with them.

A Hindu friend of my parents was very upset on finding out her son was gay - she still mourns the loss of a future daughter-in-law and feels he is missing out on a lot in life. Initially she didn't want to see him but gradually she realised he brought so much happiness to her life that she could not cut him off. She says his spouse is wonderful  - he would be perfect, if only he was a she - ah well.

How sad the woman initially thought of cutting him off, that doesn't put her in a very good light! >:(

Aruntraveller

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How sad the woman initially thought of cutting him off, that doesn't put her in a very good light! >:(

Not really Floo. I think you do have to take into account cultural issues. My mother in law when she was alive - was very hostile to me for the first year or so of my relationship with her son - but she came round to it, by and large. She was Asian from East Africa - and although Catholic it was a different kind of Catholicism from that practiced in the here and now. It takes some people time to adjust their expectations is all.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

floo

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Not really Floo. I think you do have to take into account cultural issues. My mother in law when she was alive - was very hostile to me for the first year or so of my relationship with her son - but she came round to it, by and large. She was Asian from East Africa - and although Catholic it was a different kind of Catholicism from that practiced in the here and now. It takes some people time to adjust their expectations is all.

You are a good, forgiving person. :)

Rhiannon

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Not really Floo. I think you do have to take into account cultural issues. My mother in law when she was alive - was very hostile to me for the first year or so of my relationship with her son - but she came round to it, by and large. She was Asian from East Africa - and although Catholic it was a different kind of Catholicism from that practiced in the here and now. It takes some people time to adjust their expectations is all.

Yes, among my parents' generation the expectation was that any offspring you popped would one day have a white wedding followed by a couple of children. It was hard for the parents of my gay friends to adjust their expectations. These days of course few parents have any such expectation - and those that do will be able to see their gay children marry and have a family anyway.