Are sins like homosexuality still condemned in the New Covenant of Christ?

[Hope]

In what way is homosexuality "damaging" to society alongside what?

Shkaes, bear in mind that the context of the original question was theological and it is pretty clear from Scripture that there are forms of behaviour which damage our relationship with God: that relationship is both individual and communal, so anything that damages an individual relationship impacts on the communal relationship as well.  I have yet to be convinced that there is any theological argument for accepting homosexual realtionships - in the same way that I have yet to be convinced that there is any theological argument for racism, or for refusing to treat women as equally important as men.

[Hope]

Jesus never condemned homosexuality, and could even have been gay himself. Goodness knows what Sass is on about, even if it was a reasonable question, which I don't believe it is.

Floo, the difficulty with this argument is that Jesus always challenged issues that he felt were being misrepresented - hence his toughening up of rules about adultery/divorce/etc.  If he had wanted us to believe that homosexuality was or wasn't a sin, I think he would have said something about it.  Instead, if anything, he reinforced the idea that the one-man/one woman pattern was the only valid one.

As for the idea that he was gay, there is absolutely no evidence for this.  If anything, historical claims would have him in the other camp!!  I realise that you like to use the phrase ' the disciple who he loved' as support for your suggestion, but the Greek word used in this context has no sexual connotation at all.

[Hope]

. . .  a damn great boulder flew through the air from the back of the crowd and squashed the woman flatter than a pancake.

Jesus looked up ar yelled "Mother, there are times when you really piss me off!"

Is that why the woman is reported as having been unharmed, Owl.

[Owlswing]

Is that why the woman is reported as having been unharmed, Owl.

Yet more evidence of your total sense of humour failure!

Either that or yet another instance of the bible being edited to show Jesus in  the best possible light.


Edited for typos.

[Hope]

Yet more evidence of your total sense of humour failure!

Either that or yet another instance of the bible being edited to show Jesus in  the best possible light.


Edited for typos.

There is a 3rd option, Owl.  Your attempt at humour is so pathetic, as to be unrecognisable as such.   

[Owlswing]

There is a 3rd option, Owl.  Your attempt at humour is so pathetic, as to be unrecognisable as such.   

You lose - see #45 from LJ

[Shaker]

Shkaes, bear in mind that the context of the original question was theological and it is pretty clear from Scripture that there are forms of behaviour which damage our relationship with God: that relationship is both individual and communal, so anything that damages an individual relationship impacts on the communal relationship as well.

Stop dodging. You said damaging to society, not damaging to a relationship with an entity at least half of that society (and falling) don't even believe exists. That's just the UK; rates of belief in the Scandinavian countries, the Netherlands, Czech Republic etc. are on the floor. So I'll ask again: how is society - ours; theirs - damaged by homosexuality which is what you originally stated?

I have yet to be convinced that there is any theological argument for accepting homosexual realtionships ...

Fortunately for society almost nobody actually cares about such twaddle.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Hope,

I have yet to be convinced that there is any theological argument for accepting homosexual realtionships ...

Love, compassion, do not judge, The second Greatest Commandment, Corinthians 1 chapter 13, John 8:7.

All mentioned in that old tired book you prize so highly.

Gonnagle.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Brownie,

Gonnagle, I really love what you said about the artist in Scotland.  I understand that better than church services.

I thank God that you are on this forum, a voice of Christian reason.

Gonnagle.

[Nearly Sane]

People are not going to change their minds on this issue, it seems pointless to start up this thread - I already told Sass that was my opinion.

Having known Sassy for several years I do know very well that she has no personal prejudice, what she believes is Biblical by her interpretation.   She does not believe homosexuals are Hell bound any more than anyone else and has no dislike of anyone on grounds of their sexuality.  In the past I have seen really horrible posts from so called Christians, calling gays ''degenerate'' and goodness knows what else, displaying personal distaste.  Sass is not in that category.

I don't agree with Sassy at all about this, which she knows.   Jesus certainly never mentined the subject and the Old Testament teachings are, in my view, contextual and indicative of the culture at that time.   Had God not wanted there to be homosexuals he would not have created them.   

Everyone knows what I think about it all so I won't say any more.  However if someone has genuine religious objections to gay couples we can't do anything about it and accusing them of bigotry doesn't help.   We end up being equally bigoted.  We can ignore them.   Time will take care of all that, after we have left this life no-one will care about it any more.  Society, secular and religious, is moving that way thank goodness.

On this wet and windy Easter day it does not seem appropriate to me to bring up what is always a contentious subject.   Can't we think about something other than people's sex lives?  We could think about our own or lack of  .

You are, as ever, lovely but why are views that are genuine religious ones somehow not bigoted as opposed to other views? Should homosexuals killed by  IS console themself that at least they are only being killed by thugs with genuine religious views that mean they are getting killed rather than the really bad non religious bigited ones? When Hope says that active homosexuality is the same as rape, should Trentvoyager and Leonard James, not be that bothered because it's a genuine religious view?

[ippy]

Since you can't establish the veracity of your manual, so until you do, is it really worth taking the trouble to find out if homosexuality is still condemed in the New Covenant of Christ or if this christ figure of your imagination ever existed in the first place?

 It just seems to me to be such a pointless exersise to undertake in seeing that you haven't managed to find any evidence to prove these things you think about religion are actually anything more than just a collection of baseless mythical stories. yet.

Kind regards ippy

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You are, as ever, lovely but why are views that are genuine religious ones somehow not bigoted as opposed to other views? Should homosexuals killed by  IS console themself that at least they are only being killed by thugs with genuine religious views that mean they are getting killed rather than the really bad non religious bigited ones? When Hope says that active homosexuality is the same as rape, should Trentvoyager and Leonard James, not be that bothered because it's a genuine religious view?

Wasn't Len very recently involved supporting something someone shouldn't have really said so the thread had to be removed?

 

[Brownie]

You are, as ever, lovely but why are views that are genuine religious ones somehow not bigoted as opposed to other views? Should homosexuals killed by  IS console themself that at least they are only being killed by thugs with genuine religious views that mean they are getting killed rather than the really bad non religious bigited ones? When Hope says that active homosexuality is the same as rape, should Trentvoyager and Leonard James, not be that bothered because it's a genuine religious view?

No-one should be killed because of a warped ideology and I part company with any Christian who believes that loving, same sex partnerships harm our relationship with God.   I just can't understand it and ask again, why would God make homosexuals if there was something inherently bad about them?  It's people who feel insecure about anyone they perceive to be 'different'.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No-one should be killed because of a warped ideology and I part company with any Christian who believes that loving, same sex partnerships harm our relationship with God.   I just can't understand it and ask again, why would God make homosexuals if there was something inherently bad about them?  It's people who feel insecure about anyone they perceive to be 'different'.

I don't think you can odds love. That said the interest in homosexuality by antitheists is IMHO utilitarian and to be used as a weapon for the cause.

Since religion is a minority feature antitheists are IMHO bound to account for casual homophobia in the non religious majority population.......where did the derogatory use of the word ''gay' to describe something ineffectual come from for instance?

My understanding of the biblical context in the NT was that in the belief of Palestinian culture anyone could decide on relationships outside marriage with people of either sex and marriage was the norm. There was no real distinction since sexual relations outside the norm were treated equally extremely.

IMHO much of the NT's problems with sex is in its orgiastic self indulgent form anyway.

In any case heterosexual self indulgent shagging and sexual self satisfaction as opposed to building relationships has got to be a big problem for society.

Or am I being shaggerphobic?

[Owlswing]

I don't think you can odds love. That said the interest in homosexuality by antitheists is IMHO utilitarian and to be used as a weapon for the cause.

Since religion is a minority feature antitheists are IMHO bound to account for casual homophobia in the non religious majority population.......where did the derogatory use of the word ''gay' to describe something ineffectual come from for instance?

My understanding of the biblical context in the NT was that in the belief of Palestinian culture anyone could decide on relationships outside marriage with people of either sex and marriage was the norm. There was no real distinction since sexual relations outside the norm were treated equally extremely.

IMHO much of the NT's problems with sex is in its orgiastic self indulgent form anyway.

In any case heterosexual self indulgent shagging and sexual self satisfaction as opposed to building relationships has got to be a big problem for society.

Or am I being shaggerphobic?

What truly amazes my in the screed above is your trying to classify your opinions as "humble" - a monumental misnomer if ever there was one! Almost, in fact, as monumental a misnomer as calling the god of the Christians "loving"!

[Sassy]

Dear Leonard,

Amen Brother Leonard, Amen.

Oh! and Sass, I like this forum, it is full of weird and wonderful minds and just for the record, homosexuality is not, I repeat not a sin.

Gonnagle.

When you write this scripture comes to mind...

King James Bible
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Isaiah 5:20King James Version (KJV)

20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!



Would you stake your life and the lives of others on your claim?

I would love that to be true. That homosexuality not a sin. But if homosexuality isn't wrong why did God tell men not to lie with other men as with women?

To be honest what if you are wrong? If you teach others to sin who really do you love?
I feel for those who may be harmed if you are wrong. I do not want anyone lost, really.

There can be no mistake that God forbid it in the OT. So if you saying not condemned in the New Covenant of Christ then please show us your reasons using scripture.
Christ told the woman caught in adultery whom they were to stone, to go her sin was forgiven but not to do it again.
Why would he tell her not to do it again if you believe his coming and resurrection changed it. The version of all the commandments summed up in two commandments.

[floo]

Seb, homosexuality is an orientation (A person’s basic attitude, beliefs, or feelings in relation to a particular subject or issue:) [Oxford Dictionary] or tendency - and it would appear that many people have such 'orientations' - some sexual, many other things. 

2)a man to lie with another man as he would a woman - I would understand this as referring to any form of sexual purpose - be it relational or ritualistic.

2) A practising homosexual/heterosexual/whatever, is someone who puts their sexual orientation/tendency into practice.  You could say 'acts' on that orientation.

And why is there anything wrong in a homosexual having sex with someone of the same gender? It is as natural to them, as it is for a heterosexual to have sex with someone of the opposite gender. 

[floo]

When you write this scripture comes to mind...

King James Bible
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Isaiah 5:20King James Version (KJV)

20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!



Would you stake your life and the lives of others on your claim?

I would love that to be true. That homosexuality not a sin. But if homosexuality isn't wrong why did God tell men not to lie with other men as with women?

To be honest what if you are wrong? If you teach others to sin who really do you love?
I feel for those who may be harmed if you are wrong. I do not want anyone lost, really.

There can be no mistake that God forbid it in the OT. So if you saying not condemned in the New Covenant of Christ then please show us your reasons using scripture.
Christ told the woman caught in adultery whom they were to stone, to go her sin was forgiven but not to do it again.
Why would he tell her not to do it again if you believe his coming and resurrection changed it. The version of all the commandments summed up in two commandments.

Your god is an evil bigoted b*stard if he deemed homosexual acts to be sinful. However, you have absolutely no evidence ANYTHING in the Bible is anything to do with the thinking of god, which more than likely doesn't exist. The documents making up the Bible are very human in context, surely an omnipotent deity would be well above human faults and failings?

[Spud]

And why is there anything wrong in a homosexual having sex with someone of the same gender? It is as natural to them, as it is for a heterosexual to have sex with someone of the opposite gender.

Most people have sexual urges that feel natural to them, floo. Some have to be restrained though, such as a desire for a married person.

[Leonard James]

Most people have sexual urges that feel natural to them, floo. Some have to be restrained though, such as a desire for a married person.

They have to be restrained if they are going to hurt another person ... but homosexual acts between consenting adults hurts nobody.

[floo]

Most people have sexual urges that feel natural to them, floo. Some have to be restrained though, such as a desire for a married person.

Why bother to restrain sexual desire if you are an adult, in a consenting relationship, gay or straight, married or unmarried and not cheating on a partner? There is NOTHING wrong with sex providing one takes the necessary precautions.

[Leonard James]

I think it is highly possible that the writer of Leviticus had felt an attraction to another guy who was hetero and rejected him, so he decided to veto anybody else's chances of homosexual happiness.

[Owlswing]

I think it is highly possible that the writer of Leviticus had felt an attraction to another guy who was hetero and rejected him, so he decided to veto anybody else's chances of homosexual happiness.

Actually, is it not possible, in view of the "fact" that the Christian god made us all in his image, that he had homosexual tendancies and wanted all the really nice guys for himself, and so banned anyone else from hitting on them?

[Leonard James]

Actually, is it not possible, in view of the "fact" that the Christian god made us all in his image, that he had homosexual tendancies and wanted all the really nice guys for himself, and so banned anyone else from hitting on them?

 

Well, the selfish old sod won't get the guy I married! At least, not as a virgin. 

[Spud]

Why bother to restrain sexual desire if you are an adult, in a consenting relationship, gay or straight, married or unmarried and not cheating on a partner? There is NOTHING wrong with sex providing one takes the necessary precautions.

I was answering your claim that 'if it feels natural, it must be ok'. Which clearly is incorrect.

On your above point- why should you be married, to someone of age of the opposite sex, before having sex?

Because that is the wisest way to use the sexual function which, like it or not, is procreation.