Are sins like homosexuality still condemned in the New Covenant of Christ?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No, Gonners, it is not exclusively religious ... but I think many cultures were influenced by their particular religion. So you don't have to be religious to be homophobic, but you are receiving s/hand the homophobia (however slight), unaware of its origin.

So, religion made them do it.
Or is it macho culture?
You have to expand and develop your thesis Len, otherwise it's the usual assertive durry.

[Sassy]

Most people have sexual urges that feel natural to them, floo. Some have to be restrained though, such as a desire for a married person.

Or sexual desires for Children evil in entirety.
It is a fact that because someone desires something- that in itself is not a measure of it being right or natural.
We cannot use the definition "it feels natural" because that in itself does not make it right or natural.

We always come back to the law on what is right and wrong.
The individual has to live with the laws regardless of their views and feelings.
However, I think Spud and I, have made it clear that because we feel something to be normal and natural for the individual
it does not make it so.

We have responsibilities as human beings to uphold the law and do no harm to others.

There are many arguments for right and wrong but if people do not believe in God then they cannot call him evil or blame him.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Leonard,

Thank you, and yes I think you are right, the very man my post was directed at will tell you that when I speak of culture I am also saying who I am, where I came from, what made me, what shapes me, what shapes us all, and a big part of our culture is religion, he is right, and you are right, and it needs to be discussed, not jumped on, not argued, discussed in a open and honest way.

Oh and BTW, it has been largely due to your good self and Trentvoyager that I have tried to confront my own failings, so thank you.

Gonnagle.

[Brownie]

And I'll ask again, why do you think that arguing that homosexuals should be discriminated against is somehow more acceptable if it is for genuinely religious reasons'?

From my point of view Nearly Sane, it not acceptable for anyone to discriminate but those who are religious feel they have scriptural back up.  We've had people quote the Bible on this thread, people who appear to be quite reasonable in most respects and certainly don't have any personal animosity - they just think it is wrong.  There's no arguing with that view point, believe me I've tried many times (I suppose I still do up to a point but I do it with no hope of having any effect).  They have to choose to think outside their very small box for themselves before having a change of heart on this issue;  it happens but we are probably in for a long wait.  They are quite different to people who feel personal distaste towards homosexuals.

However, religious or not, the law does not tolerate discrimination and that takes care of some of it thank goodness.

(Briefly, having just scanned a couple of recent posts before posting this one, the evil of sexual desire for children has been mentioned.  That is not an inherently natural desire, no-one is born a child molester.  No comparison in my view.
Gonnagle's post is great.)

[Leonard James]

Dear Leonard,

Thank you, and yes I think you are right, the very man my post was directed at will tell you that when I speak of culture I am also saying who I am, where I came from, what made me, what shapes me, what shapes us all, and a big part of our culture is religion, he is right, and you are right, and it needs to be discussed, not jumped on, not argued, discussed in a open and honest way.

Oh and BTW, it has been largely due to your good self and Trentvoyager that I have tried to confront my own failings, so thank you.

Gonnagle.

Thank you, Gonners. It is very encouraging to be told that I have helped you to accept us as normal human beings with the same rights and responsibilities as everybody else. That is all most of us want, and the changes that have come about in recent years are wonderful to see.

[Leonard James]

Briefly, having just scanned a couple of recent posts before posting this one, the evil of sexual desire for children has been mentioned.  That is not an inherently natural desire, no-one is born a child molester.  No comparison in my view.

I'm afraid I am going to stick my neck out on this, Brownie, ... cut my throat if you like! 

A tendency to be sexually attracted to children is just as much genetic (natural) as homosexuality. That is how evolution works, I'm afraid. All we can do is legislate against it to protect children.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Leonard,

Exactly, how dare I or any human being treat you differently, the theist of any flavour miss this, it is probably the greatest sin, for me a theist it leads to crimes against God and crimes against God are crimes against humanity.

Gonnagle.

[Sassy]

I wonder if that miserable little git Paul was a gay in denial?

Oh my what have you ever done for anyone at your own cost?
NOTHING... yes I am sure of it. If no praise or glory for yourself, I am sure you have never done anything for anyone that was a cost to yourself.
No I am not talking about doing your duty as a mother and wife. I am talking about real cost.

As for Paul, unlike yourself he got his ass and went and did something about the things he did not believe to right.
He did not believe in Christ and as the first martyr was murdered Stephen he kept  the clothes of his killers.

Your attitude is the attitude which will eventually see Christians murdered in the street because you hold hatred in your heart for something you claim not to exist?

What did Paul's beliefs in God have to do with Jesus if he did not believe Jesus was who he was?
Why allow himself to witness and agree with the murder of those who did, if Jesus not the Son of God and Messiah?

You beliefs lead you to make bigoted statements and yet if there is no God, why hold any views at all on God or the bible?

But when faced with the truth, Saul/Paul repented and he became one of the followers of Christ, he who persecuted the followers of Christ and condoned their killing now became his own enemy. What if faced with evidence in your own life of God. Say your child facing certain death and the only way to save them was a miracle from God. What if you prayed to God and that miracle came. Would you return to your old ways?

What has Paul ever done to you or anyone that deserves your malicious and unwarranted liable?
There is nothing to make anyone wonder about what you wrote. Do you not think your own ability to make false accusations against others comes from the evil in your own heart? Because there is nothing to give foundation to your false accusation against Paul.

Gods love is pure love.

[Brownie]

I'm afraid I am going to stick my neck out on this, Brownie, ... cut my throat if you like! 

A tendency to be sexually attracted to children is just as much genetic (natural) as homosexuality. That is how evolution works, I'm afraid. All we can do is legislate against it to protect children.

I won't cut your throat Len but believe you are wrong about this.

[Leonard James]

I won't cut your throat Len but believe you are wrong about this.

Possibly, but can you explain WHY the desire exists if it is not natural?

[Gonnagle]

Dear Leonard,

A tendency to be sexually attracted to children is just as much genetic (natural) as homosexuality. That is how evolution works, I'm afraid. All we can do is legislate against it to protect children.

Well F*** me side ways with and old washing pole, that is how evolution works!! well until I get my head around evolution I will have to disagree, and you Leonard old son if I remember correctly have not got your head around evolution.

It is not simple Leonard, and anyone who says they fully understand it are deluding themselves, everytime we learn something new about evolution it opens up hundreds more questions, old Dawkins in his book "The Greatest Show on Earth" wants us to upgrade evolution from theory to fact, I think that is wrong, there are lots of facts about evolution but the whole thing, and it is huge should sit in science as a theory, a brilliant theory until such times that we have dotted the "i" and crossed the "t" it is far to important.

Gonnagle.

[Leonard James]

Dear Leonard,

Well F*** me side ways with and old washing pole, that is how evolution works!! well until I get my head around evolution I will have to disagree, and you Leonard old son if I remember correctly have not got your head around evolution.

It is not simple Leonard, and anyone who says they fully understand it are deluding themselves, everytime we learn something new about evolution it opens up hundreds more questions, old Dawkins in his book "The Greatest Show on Earth" wants us to upgrade evolution from theory to fact, I think that is wrong, there are lots of facts about evolution but the whole thing, and it is huge should sit in science as a theory, a brilliant theory until such times that we have dotted the "i" and crossed the "t" it is far to important.

Gonnagle.

 

You do have an exquisite turn of phrase at times, Gonners. I love the washing pole phrase!

Now, in my defense, I will say that I believe human sexuality is just like all other aspects of our lives, genetically directed. We are what our genes make us, nothing more or less. Even our reaction to nurture is dependent on our genes.

[Brownie]

'Gay' is now in common usage as a put-down meaning a bit rubbish - 'those shoes are a bit gay'; 'it's a bit gay to do that' etc.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/24/using-gay-mean-crap-bullying-gap-people

That is certainly the case, has been for years.  Most recently I heard a young chap describe his mother's Smart car as ''A bit gay''.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Leonard,

Fine old son, my take, you have been seduced by the lovely science, genetics for me is still in its infancy, I will try to learn about it, but I know that new things will be discovered about it, I keep an open mind about just how much it tells us about who we are, what makes us, us.

Gonnagle.

[Leonard James]

Dear Leonard,

Fine old son, my take, you have been seduced by the lovely science, genetics for me is still in its infancy, I will try to learn about it, but I know that new things will be discovered about it, I keep an open mind about just how much it tells us about who we are, what makes us, us.

Gonnagle.

Since there is no other logical explanation for us, I accept the scientific one. If evidence arises of any other possibility I will consider it.

[Brownie]

Possibly, but can you explain WHY the desire exists if it is not natural?

Anyone can have a brief, fleeting desire for anything Len and that is natural.  An abiding longing for sexual satisfaction with children, who have not reached puberty, in the same way that one would want an adult partner, is something quite different.

[Leonard James]

Anyone can have a brief, fleeting desire for anything Len and that is natural.  An abiding longing for sexual satisfaction with children, who have not reached puberty, in the same way that one would want an adult partner, is something quite different.

You haven't answered my question. What is the cause of it, in your opinion?

[Gonnagle]

Dear Leonard,

Since there is no other logical explanation for us, I accept the scientific one. If evidence arises of any other possibility I will consider it.

Go ahead and accept but please, please also question, it is yours Leonard, if some muppet says, hey do you know you are descended from a monkey, if he has letters after his name, don't just think, well he must be right, question it, you never know, sitting there in the sun sipping your fine wine, you may have an epiphany and be on the road to collecting your first Nobel.

Gonnagle.

[Leonard James]

Dear Leonard,

Go ahead and accept but please, please also question, it is yours Leonard, if some muppet says, hey do you know you are descended from a monkey, if he has letters after his name, don't just think, well he must be right, question it, you never know, sitting there in the sun sipping your fine wine, you may have an epiphany and be on the road to collecting your first Nobel.

Gonnagle.

The argument and evidence for evolution is sufficient to convince me that it is correct.

It definitely does NOT say that I am descended a monkey.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Leonard,

It definitely does NOT say that I am descended a monkey.

I was being flippant.

The argument and evidence for evolution is sufficient to convince me that it is correct.

I am not arguing how correct it is, but is it all there.

Gonnagle.

[Samuel]

I believe that homosexuality is still a sin against God as it is forbidden for man to lie with another man as he would a woman.

Just to be clear then, lesbians are safe?

[Shaker]

Just to be clear then, lesbians are safe?

Romans 1:26 is supposed to be a reference (the only one, I think) to lesbians.

[Leonard James]

Dear Leonard,

I was being flippant.

I am not arguing how correct it is, but is it all there.

Gonnagle.

Of course not ... there are always nuances waiting to be revealed.

[ippy]

So I'm told these people that find young children sexually attractive, don't think there's anything wrong with themselves they think it's all OK and there is no cure for these people either.

Not somewhere I would like to be doing the reason why research, I'll take a pass on that one.

ippy 

[Leonard James]

So I'm told these people that find young children sexually attractive, don't think there's anything wrong with themselves they think it's all OK and there is no cure for these people either.

Not somewhere I would like to be doing the reason why research, I'll take a pass on that one.

ippy

I don't believe they think there's nothing wrong in it ... society has shown repeatedly that most people disapprove and they must be aware that it is a punishable offence. But clearly some find it difficult to suppress, since it is a 'natural' urge in them.