Are sins like homosexuality still condemned in the New Covenant of Christ?

[Spud]

Spud said:  "Such a condition could be treated by the person waiting until the child is an adult, in the mean time suppressing their urges under supervision by a phsychotherapist and perhaps being allowed to conduct a friendship with the child, thus forming an emotional bond with him/her which might be the foundation for a future physical relationship when the child is old enough. We do after all see older men marrying women much younger than themselves."

That sounds gross to me Spud.  So, would the child be told, when adult, that this person 'courting' them, fancied them when they were a child?   Can you begin to imagine?  It wouldn't work anyway because the child's allure would disappear when they reached adulthood, in the meantime the predator would have moved on to one or more other kids whilst undergoing therapy.  I am sure he would like talking about his fancies to someone who listens in a non-judgemental way in a confidential environment.

Yes, older men marry younger women and sometimes the other way around, nothing wrong with that, but hopefully when both parties are adult.

How can any of that compare to homosexual relationships between consenting adults?  It is rather an insulting comparison in my opinion.  Giving you the benefit of the doubt, you may just have been thinking out loud, not giving your own opinion.

Hi Brownie,

Yes I was thinking out loud. Perhaps not with the view to an eventual marriage, then. Except in cases where the child is sexually mature but not old enough by law to marry.

In the case I suggested, it wouldn't be with a view to future marriage, then, and the child wouldn't be told about the pedophile's condition. Forming a friendship with the child but without any physical contact might be therapeutic for the pedophile, in that it would help him learn how to relate to children in the right way. You would have to have the parents' involvement of course. I'm not sure how else you could treat a pedophile for pedophilia.

The only other option would be for them to avoid all contact with children, which would not be achieving as much as if they found they could eventually relate to children socially without needing to go further.

Relating this to homosexuality, it is clear to me that for Christians homosexual practices are forbidden. So I am interested in ways that could help homosexuals to change.

The issue is of course, does it harm anyone. Aside from the obvious harm caused by sodomy, there is the psychological harm to both involved. There is loss of masculinity (in men who treat another man as if female, or behave effeminately) or loss of femininity (in women). I think this is swept under the carpet by people who refer to them as "harmless".

[Shaker]

Relating this to homosexuality, it is clear to me that for Christians homosexual practices are forbidden. So I am interested in ways that could help homosexuals to change.

That may possibly apply to a tiny minority of Christians with very warped ideas of human sexuality, but a tiny minority says it all, doesn't it?

The issue is of course, does it harm anyone. Aside from the obvious harm caused by sodomy

What harm is that?

there is the psychological harm to both involved.

Again, what harm?

There is loss of masculinity (in men who treat another man as if female, or behave effeminately) or loss of femininity (in women).

That's your idea of "harm," is it? How very peculiar.

I think this is swept under the carpet by people who refer to them as "harmless".

Perhaps those people don't think that the word "harm" is in any way justified, and indeed is indicative of not only 1970s stereotypical timewarp at best but a highly offensive view of gay people.

[Brownie]

Spud:
"Forming a friendship with the child but without any physical contact might be therapeutic for the pedophile, in that it would help him learn how to relate to children in the right way. You would have to have the parents' involvement of course. I'm not sure how else you could treat a pedophile for pedophilia.

The only other option would be for them to avoid all contact with children, which would not be achieving as much as if they found they could eventually relate to children socially without needing to go further."
---------------------

I hope you will not be offended Spud if I say that I find the above somewhat naive, albeit very thoughtful.   In this day and age, knowing what we do and being aware of areas that cannot yet be understood, parents would not knowingly allow their children to be involved in any way with a paedophile.

Adults can take risks, trusting people and maybe believing that a person has changed etc, but no risks can be taken with children who are unable to understand or consent.  Our role is to protect them.

Convicted paedophiles often undertake programmes in prison but the success rate is poor.  If you can imagine a scenario where they all sit together with a therapist and discuss their feelings, they back eachother up.  That isn't the intention of course but it's the way it pans out.  They can also be very convincing and pull the wool over the eyes of therapists.  The same can be said of clergy and chaplaincy helpers who may come to believe that a conversion will have 'cured' them.

On release they are not allowed to live near, eg, a school or anywhere that children congregate and an eye is kept on them.  Obviously there cannot be absolutely no contact with children because that would be impossible, going to a shop or on a 'bus will bring them into contact, but contact has to be limited and their movements monitored.  Yet, with all the help and goodwill in the world, and even with the best intentions of the perpetrators, they frequently re-offend.

'Treatment' is virtually impossible.  Prevention however is not impossible.  If everyone was taught from an early age to respect themselves and others I doubt it would happen.  Until fairly recent years, respect of children was not a consideration, they were definitely not respected and had no rights.  They belonged to their parents and, when at school, up to a point they belonged to teachers.  Individual fears, needs, etc, were not considered except by the most enlightened.  Even in hospital kids were not treated as people.  They were taught to believe that grown ups were right and couldn't speak out for fear of being told off (I saw a programme recently where a woman said that she had been raped as a youngster, but could not tell her parents something like that!). 

Things have improved for children, thank goodness.  I've seen a vast change in attitude in my lifetime and hope to see even more.

The rest of your post deals with homosexuality and I've said my bit on that.  Shaker has addressed it, probably better than I could.

(Edited for clumsy phrasing)

[Spud]

Hi Brownie,

This is in line with the thread topic, because I am thinking in the context of Christian families who care about the people in society and are willing to take risks in order to help them. As an example, a few male friends who shared a house together took in someone who was an alcoholic. They let him live in their house and encouraged him for some time and he gradually got back into work and living a normal life. If someone can come off alcohol or drugs, then surely a person with homosexual or pedophile-type tendencies can be turned around if they express a desire to do so.
There was something on the news recently about the Spanish prison system. They have much better facilities for rehabilitation, and a much lower proportion of those released re-offend than in Britain.
I guess what I want to get across is that when a person loses something they think of as part of them, for example the freedom to express the desire to molest children (it being illegal), they need something to fill that hole. It can be a hobby or a friendship, something to take away the urges. Sometimes they will surface again but over time an offender can learn how to deal with unwanted desires and live a healthy lifestyle.
In churches where there is real conviction that homosexuality is against God's will, you will find individuals with the gift of helping people struggling in that area; they know how to support them, pray for them and help them change their lifestyle. A lot of it is about not being judgmental when they sometimes fall back into it, recognizing that change doesn't happen overnight.
You said, "How can any of that compare to homosexual relationships between consenting adults?  It is rather an insulting comparison in my opinion."
It depends on what you read. I have found literature which tells a different story about homosexual lifestyles from what one normally hears. You just have to read Shaker's post above to see that he is unwilling to see anything negative about them, or admit that they cause harm. Personally, one look at the biological evidence makes it quite clear that homosexual sex is nothing other than destructive.
We will see eventually whether or not the West's acceptance of homosexuality makes it stronger. It has been interesting to see how the USA and NATO were powerless to do anything about Russia's recent involvement in Syria.
Anyway, thanks for your thoughts.

[Brownie]

Thank you for your post Spud.

I have worked in a prison and know something of sex offenders, of all types.  It's difficult to talk about it though, without saying too much about me and I've no wish to set myself up as an expert of any kind.  I just know things and not only from reading.  I can assure you that a comparison between an alcoholic/drug addict and a paedophile is not a fair comparison.  I would love to be able to trust a paedophile and do believe they can change if they really want to, but not enough for them to be trusted with children;  they're also very good at convincing people they've changed.

Regarding homosexual sex, I once posted something about it and was told off (not here), for being too explicit.  I merely wanted to clarify something, in no way would I ever seek to shock or titillate and some things I find distasteful to think about.  I don't think about them unless I have to, the same goes for other peoples' sex lives generally.  It's their business.  However homosexual sex is quite safe as long as people are considerate to eachother, same as heteros really.  I won't say any more about it.  Again I am no expert but, again, worked in an environment where I gained relevant knowledge.

Although our opinions differ it's good to discuss these, and other, things and learn something about the viewpoints of others.

[Owlswing]

Hi Brownie,

This is in line with the thread topic, because I am thinking in the context of Christian families who care about the people in society and are willing to take risks in order to help them. As an example, a few male friends who shared a house together took in someone who was an alcoholic. They let him live in their house and encouraged him for some time and he gradually got back into work and living a normal life. If someone can come off alcohol or drugs, then surely a person with homosexual or pedophile-type tendencies can be turned around if they express a desire to do so.
There was something on the news recently about the Spanish prison system. They have much better facilities for rehabilitation, and a much lower proportion of those released re-offend than in Britain.
I guess what I want to get across is that when a person loses something they think of as part of them, for example the freedom to express the desire to molest children (it being illegal), they need something to fill that hole. It can be a hobby or a friendship, something to take away the urges. Sometimes they will surface again but over time an offender can learn how to deal with unwanted desires and live a healthy lifestyle.
In churches where there is real conviction that homosexuality is against God's will, you will find individuals with the gift of helping people struggling in that area; they know how to support them, pray for them and help them change their lifestyle. A lot of it is about not being judgmental when they sometimes fall back into it, recognizing that change doesn't happen overnight.
You said, "How can any of that compare to homosexual relationships between consenting adults?  It is rather an insulting comparison in my opinion."
It depends on what you read. I have found literature which tells a different story about homosexual lifestyles from what one normally hears. You just have to read Shaker's post above to see that he is unwilling to see anything negative about them, or admit that they cause harm. Personally, one look at the biological evidence makes it quite clear that homosexual sex is nothing other than destructive.
We will see eventually whether or not the West's acceptance of homosexuality makes it stronger. It has been interesting to see how the USA and NATO were powerless to do anything about Russia's recent involvement in Syria.
Anyway, thanks for your thoughts.

Clearly, Spud, you have never had contact with a paedophile - if this is your attitude I hope, most sincerely, that you never do!

This is the most Godawful load of tosh I have ever seen. Paedophiles do NOT want to be cured! And you are beyond moronic if you think that there is anyway they can be. Paedophiles are convinced that what they are doing is perfectly natural and that they should be left alone to get on with their lives. 

I had the misfortune to have my youngest daughter assaulted by a paedophile "in order to show his son what sex was all about".

His social worker called in two priests and several other persons of character in te community to give him character references! He got off with a warning!

I got months and months of trying to convince my daughter that it was not her that was to blame.

Putting it bluntly people with attitudes to paedophilia like yours make me sick! The only way you are ever going to find out just what rubbish you are talking is for a child of yours to becoime a victim - and I truly hope that this will never happen - I would rather leave you talking total crap than have you put through what my wife and I went through!

[Brownie]

That is a very shocking and sad story Owl. 

You are right too.  Spud just doesn't know, at least that's the impression I have.  I may have been similarly naive when I was young.

[Owlswing]

That is a very shocking and sad story Owl. 

You are right too.  Spud just doesn't know, at least that's the impression I have.  I may have been similarly naive when I was young.

Yes, the family has had it share of the shit-end of the stick of life, but, fortunately, we have come through it stronger for the experiences.

However, for this who think my views on Christians and Christianity, not all of the Christians obviously, are extreme, those of my daughters make mine seem mild by comparison!

In fact, it was, by the priest's attitude to my daughter's plea for help after the divorce that caused her to investigate other religious beliefs and paths and to become Pagan and, to give me the understanding of what a Pagan path was and is, to give me cause me to covert too. As she got oldder, the youngster converted as well. So you could say that Christians and Christianity led me to the religion in which I now find myself.

It is, I have to say, the only positive thing that I ever got out of Christianity.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

That may possibly apply to a tiny minority of Christians with very warped ideas of human sexuality, but a tiny minority says it all, doesn't it?What harm is that?
Again, what harm? That's your idea of "harm," is it? How very peculiar.Perhaps those people don't think that the word "harm" is in any way justified, and indeed is indicative of not only 1970s stereotypical timewarp at best but a highly offensive view of gay people.

Yet again you ignore the warped ness of human sexuality in society in general in the cinema in the media etc, in a jointly held and contradictory prudery and licentiousness.

[Shaker]

You just have to read Shaker's post above to see that he is unwilling to see anything negative about them, or admit that they cause harm.

Mere assertion doesn't cut it on this forum. The post to which you refer (#201) asked you to specify/substantiate, with evidence, exactly what harm homosexuality causes. You failed to answer this challenge.

Personally, one look at the biological evidence makes it quite clear that homosexual sex is nothing other than destructive.

Destructive how? Again, your say-so doesn't count as credible evidence.

[floo]

Hi Brownie,

This is in line with the thread topic, because I am thinking in the context of Christian families who care about the people in society and are willing to take risks in order to help them. As an example, a few male friends who shared a house together took in someone who was an alcoholic. They let him live in their house and encouraged him for some time and he gradually got back into work and living a normal life. If someone can come off alcohol or drugs, then surely a person with homosexual or pedophile-type tendencies can be turned around if they express a desire to do so.
There was something on the news recently about the Spanish prison system. They have much better facilities for rehabilitation, and a much lower proportion of those released re-offend than in Britain.
I guess what I want to get across is that when a person loses something they think of as part of them, for example the freedom to express the desire to molest children (it being illegal), they need something to fill that hole. It can be a hobby or a friendship, something to take away the urges. Sometimes they will surface again but over time an offender can learn how to deal with unwanted desires and live a healthy lifestyle.
In churches where there is real conviction that homosexuality is against God's will, you will find individuals with the gift of helping people struggling in that area; they know how to support them, pray for them and help them change their lifestyle. A lot of it is about not being judgmental when they sometimes fall back into it, recognizing that change doesn't happen overnight.
You said, "How can any of that compare to homosexual relationships between consenting adults?  It is rather an insulting comparison in my opinion."
It depends on what you read. I have found literature which tells a different story about homosexual lifestyles from what one normally hears. You just have to read Shaker's post above to see that he is unwilling to see anything negative about them, or admit that they cause harm. Personally, one look at the biological evidence makes it quite clear that homosexual sex is nothing other than destructive.
We will see eventually whether or not the West's acceptance of homosexuality makes it stronger. It has been interesting to see how the USA and NATO were powerless to do anything about Russia's recent involvement in Syria.
Anyway, thanks for your thoughts.

Spud mentioning paedophilia and homosexuality together as if they were both bad is SICK as I have pointed out before. Paedophilia is ALWAYS wrong and not curable. There is NOTHING wrong with being gay, and if the deity doesn't like it, assuming it exists and that is so, then the deity is WRONG!

[Spud]

Clearly, Spud, you have never had contact with a paedophile - if this is your attitude I hope, most sincerely, that you never do!

So you have, I am sorry to hear about your experience. I have had an experience with a homosexual that was probably as bad. This guy befriended me at a church when I was new to the area. Not knowing his sexuality I thought him very pleasant, and was intrigued that someone could be so friendly. Well, eventually we discussed relationships, and he told me about a previous one he had had, and that it was with a man. My approach as a Christian was to stay friends with him but make it clear that I believed that was wrong. His approach was to get me in a headlock and force me to say it is not wrong.
Homosexuals are not harmless, they are mentally ill disordered and can be dangerous, just like pedophiles. Read the account of Sodom and Gomorrah for more evidence.
Regarding their rehabilitation. If I had continued to live near to this person I hope I would have forgiven him and remained friends. As it was I moved away and didn't want to stay in contact. However, I know a chap who has had homosexual attraction but is a Christian and has coped with it while remaining celibate. This is due to support from his church. I do not know any pedophiles, but have read an article online written by one, who claims he is also celibate and never molests children. I will try and find a link. But people here who claim all pedophiles do not want to be cured are clearly wrong; neither do they know the power of prayer.

[Nearly Sane]

So you have, I am sorry to hear about your experience. I have had an experience with a homosexual that was probably as bad. This guy befriended me at a church when I was new to the area. Not knowing his sexuality I thought him very pleasant, and was intrigued that someone could be so friendly. Well, eventually we discussed relationships, and he told me about a previous one he had had, and that it was with a man. My approach as a Christian was to stay friends with him but make it clear that I believed that was wrong. His approach was to get me in a headlock and force me to say it is not wrong.
Homosexuals are not harmless, they are mentally ill and can be dangerous, just like pedophiles. Read the account of Sodom and Gomorrah for more evidence.
Regarding their rehabilitation. If I had continued to live near to this person I hope I would have forgiven him and remained friends. As it was I moved away and didn't want to stay in contact. However, I know a chap who has had homosexual attraction but is a Christian and has coped with it while remaining celibate. This is due to support from his church. I do not know any pedophiles, but have read an article online written by one, who claims he is also celibate and never molests children. I will try and find a link. But people here who claim all pedophiles do not want to be cured are clearly wrong; neither do they know the power of prayer.

My sainted old mother will pray for you and your inability to control your vile hate

[jeremyp]

he told me about a previous one he had had, and that it was with a man. My approach as a Christian was to stay friends with him but make it clear that I believed that was wrong. His approach was to get me in a headlock and force me to say it is not wrong.

Apart from the inexcusable use of physical violence, he was correct and you were wrong.

Homosexuals are not harmless, they are mentally ill and can be dangerous, just like pedophiles.

No more so than heterosexuals.

Read the account of Sodom and Gomorrah for more evidence.

In which the so called "righteous" heterosexual man offers to let a crowd rape his daughters? I don't think I'll be taking any morality lessons from that fable.

Regarding their rehabilitation.

Hopefully, one day you will be rehabilitated into humanity. Your hate is not becoming for somebody who professes to follow a god of love.

[Spud]

As a post script to the above, I would add that I have noticed a change in L-J which I see as being thanks to his friends on this forum. Although he is continuing to practice homosexuality I would say that he is a friendly, intelligent person, so I mean no disrespect to him.

Anticipating a reaction from people to my comment about homosexuals being mentally ill psychologically disordered, this was the diagnosis in medical textbook until it was decided that they were not harmful. My comment is a result of my experience with the person I described above.

[Nearly Sane]

As a post script to the above, I would add that I have noticed a change in L-J which I see as being thanks to his friends on this forum. Although he is continuing to practice homosexuality I would say that he is a friendly, intelligent person, so I mean no disrespect to him.

Anticipating a reaction from people to my comment about homosexuals being mentally ill, this was the diagnosis in medical textbook until it was decided that they were not harmful. My comment is a result of my experience with the person I described above.

And you have just called Leonard mentally ill and dangerous.

[jeremyp]

Although he is continuing to practice homosexuality I would say that he is a friendly, intelligent person, so I mean no disrespect to him.

If, as a rule, you find homosexuals not to be friendly, I would suggestion look to the common factor in your encounters. i.e. you.

Anticipating a reaction from people to my comment about homosexuals being mentally ill, this was the diagnosis in medical textbook until it was decided that they were not harmful.

Homosexuals are no more or less harmful than anybody else in the general populace.

[Nearly Sane]

As a post script to the above, I would add that I have noticed a change in L-J which I see as being thanks to his friends on this forum. Although he is continuing to practice homosexuality I would say that he is a friendly, intelligent person, so I mean no disrespect to him.

Anticipating a reaction from people to my comment about homosexuals being mentally ill, this was the diagnosis in medical textbook until it was decided that they were not harmful. My comment is a result of my experience with the person I described above.

Oh, and what is this change you see in Leonard?

[Stranger]

I have had an experience with a homosexual that was probably as bad. This guy befriended me at a church when I was new to the area. Not knowing his sexuality I thought him very pleasant, and was intrigued that someone could be so friendly. Well, eventually we discussed relationships, and he told me about a previous one he had had, and that it was with a man. My approach as a Christian was to stay friends with him but make it clear that I believed that was wrong. His approach was to get me in a headlock and force me to say it is not wrong.
Homosexuals are not harmless, they are mentally ill and can be dangerous, just like pedophiles. Read the account of Sodom and Gomorrah for more evidence.

One person and the contents of your silly storybook is not evidence.

Those who suffer from religiously inspired prejudice, such as yours, are certainly not harmless, they are, at the very least, deluded and can be dangerous...

[Leonard James]

As a post script to the above, I would add that I have noticed a change in L-J which I see as being thanks to his friends on this forum.

Well, Spud, people's personality and beliefs don't remain static ... we are continually developing, even at my age.

Although he is continuing to practice homosexuality I would say that he is a friendly, intelligent person, so I mean no disrespect to him.

Just to put you right, the only homosexual activity I have indulged in in recent years is looking and wishing! Sad, ain't it? 

[Nearly Sane]

Well, Spud, people's personality and beliefs don't remain static ... we are continually developing, even at my age.

Just to put you right, the only homosexual activity I have indulged in in recent years is looking and wishing! Sad, ain't it? 

This made me think of this


https://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=vbAoOeXC2Sg

[Leonard James]

This made me think of this


https://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=vbAoOeXC2Sg

Snoopavision? I don't think me old 'eart would stand it! 

[Aruntraveller]

Homosexuals are not harmless, they are mentally ill and can be dangerous, just like pedophiles.

I haven't time to be eloquent.

So fuck off.

[Brownie]

Spud, I found your account of your experience with the man from church quite chilling because I can put myself in your place at that time and imagine how totally unexpected and scary it was.

But Spud, do you not think that many girls and young women have had some awful and unexpected experiences with men whom they thought were friends, or 'fatherly' if older?   I can assure you that happens and used to happen a lot in my day.  It was a breach of trust and, years ago, the girls couldn't tell anyone because things were not talked about.  I mentioned 'friends' and 'fatherly' but that can be expanded to encompass clergy, teachers and others.   Then there were men at work who tried to corner inexperienced girls in their first job (''hands''), and made constant innuendoes.

That didn't put most off of us off men for good, or make us think that all males were so badly behaved.  I'm sure nearly all of us met plenty of nice chaps and eventually married.

You had a horrible experience Spud with a very angry and cruel man who was obviously unbalanced;  what made it worse was the church connection.  I feel very sorry for you that such a thing happened, the memory must be an abiding one but, Spud, he was not a typical example of a homosexual or even of the average bloke.

Don't tar everyone with the same brush.  There are horrible people in the world (both sexes) but plenty of decent ones and their sexuality doesn't enter into it.

[Owlswing]

So you have, I am sorry to hear about your experience. I have had an experience with a homosexual that was probably as bad. This guy befriended me at a church when I was new to the area. Not knowing his sexuality I thought him very pleasant, and was intrigued that someone could be so friendly. Well, eventually we discussed relationships, and he told me about a previous one he had had, and that it was with a man. My approach as a Christian was to stay friends with him but make it clear that I believed that was wrong. His approach was to get me in a headlock and force me to say it is not wrong.
Homosexuals are not harmless, they are mentally ill and can be dangerous, just like pedophiles. Read the account of Sodom and Gomorrah for more evidence.
Regarding their rehabilitation. If I had continued to live near to this person I hope I would have forgiven him and remained friends. As it was I moved away and didn't want to stay in contact. However, I know a chap who has had homosexual attraction but is a Christian and has coped with it while remaining celibate. This is due to support from his church. I do not know any pedophiles, but have read an article online written by one, who claims he is also celibate and never molests children. I will try and find a link. But people here who claim all pedophiles do not want to be cured are clearly wrong; neither do they know the power of prayer.

The man was probably not homosewxual but heterosexual and, seeing you behaviour considered  that you were a female - or more accurately (to use a Vladisim) a c**t!