Are sins like homosexuality still condemned in the New Covenant of Christ?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

How sad the woman initially thought of cutting him off, that doesn't put her in a very good light!

Not really. It's up to her as to whether she wants to socialise with her son and his partner.

And she also has to decide whether she is up to dealing with any social stigma the relationship will cause amongst her peers - she seems to have told no one except my parents. Her son has his partner so he's happy - she has no one as she is divorced. She has obviously decided that she prefers social isolation to losing her son. It's her call - she is the one who has to live her life and make choices to maximise her happiness.

[Shaker]

And has she maximised her happiness?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Yes, among my parents' generation the expectation was that any offspring you popped would one day have a white wedding followed by a couple of children. It was hard for the parents of my gay friends to adjust their expectations. These days of course few parents have any such expectation - and those that do will be able to see their gay children marry and have a family anyway.

I think you are generalising. Most Asian parents in my generation, while recognising that heterosexual marriage has lots of problems,  still have an expectation of traditional marriage and grand children as the lesser evil compared to individualism.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

And has she maximised her happiness?

In relation to those particular circumstances, I suppose that her current view is her son means more to her than her peers, so yes she believes she made the right choice - she also took into account how upset he would feel if she didn't see him as he is devoted to her. Not every parent and child have that kind of relationship.

[Rhiannon]

I think you are generalising. Most Asian parents in my generation, while recognising that heterosexual marriage has lots of problems,  still have an expectation of traditional marriage and grand children as the lesser evil compared to individualism.

Even if that leads to disappointment and unhappiness.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Err...disappointment and unhappiness are part of the "rich tapestry of life". So long as you're not disappointed and unhappy most of the time over a long period of time with most areas of your life and there are only rare periods of happiness to balance it out, then it's up to the individual to appreciate the positives and not dwell on the negatives. It's about trying to find a balance.

[Brownie]

Gabriella talks a lot of sense and we cannot really assess people from different cultures, certainly not judge them.  We must all know, from work or neighbours or our childrens' school friends, lots of people from Hindu or Muslim backgrounds who live happy and fulfilled lives.  They can still divorce like anyone else, it happens.  No-one is happy all the time.

[Rhiannon]

Yes but we can find our own unhappiness and disappointment. We do
We don't need to impose it on others, or have it imposed on us.

And my best friend from school was a Hindu, and she did get divorced, and then had to leave the country and start a new life because of the shame - not something I'm having to do as a consequence of my own separation.

And that isn't a judgement, it's just how it was.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Yes but we can find our own unhappiness and disappointment. We do
We don't need to impose it on others, or have it imposed on us.

And my best friend from school was a Hindu, and she did get divorced, and then had to leave the country and start a new life because of the shame - not something I'm having to do as a consequence of my own separation.

In London, divorced Hindus and Muslims whom I have met don't seem to need to hide away in shame or leave the country. My parents' friend got divorced a while ago, long before her son told her about being in a relationship with a man - I don't know if his dad knows.

My mother-in-law divorced and remarried while she was in Sri Lanka. She ran away from her first husband (they had no kids) when she fell in love with my husband's late father - she was from a well-known Muslim family so it was in the papers and security forces were hunting for them so they had to hide out with sympathetic friends until it all died down. Her mother disowned her for at least 10 years. She eventually came to the UK with her children as her new husband was involved in politics and as a result death threats had been made against her because her husband was a bit of a maverick who wouldn't go along with the corruption in politics.

By the way, she thinks she has had a good life - she doesn't dwell on the negative, which I think most of the time feels like it is imposed on us by others. Whether imposed by others or not, it is still possibly to navigate a path to contentment a lot of the time - if you manage your expectations and don't obsess over disappointments.

[Rhiannon]

I grew up in London, as did my friend. Maybe different backgrounds involved.

Your mother in law, by choosing to see that she has had a good life, isn't letting anyone impose unhappiness on her. Choosing how we respond to our feelings is the one thing we all have left to us at any time, however hard. The complication of having unhappiness imposed upon us by family is that we don't want to hurt those that we love.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I agree - but then that is the downside of social living and love in general - there are more opportunities for people to hurt you.

Each person will look at their own individual circumstances and weigh up whether the benefits of family and love and agreeing to compromise, co-operate, and negotiate are worth the pain of getting hurt, of having to compromise and, sacrificie etc

[Rhiannon]

Well yes, and of course when it comes to partners and friends we can only have love and happiness if we are prepared to risk losing them.

With family though, we don't seek out that love, it just is, and in context of the discussion we are talking about people being asked by their loved ones to choose one kind of love over another, or stay in an unhappy situation, in order to keep others happy, and for what - social approval?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I can't generalise and my experience of non-Asian culture in terms of family relationships is fairly limited, but my experience of Asian culture is that duty and responsibility and generally being useful and helpful to people, especially your family, is considered a worthwhile way to spend your time before you die.

 Seeking periods of happiness outside of that scenario is ok but spending too much time focusing only on your own happiness - that can't be shared by your family who may have different traditions - is not something that is considered a meaningful way to spend your time. You then have to choose what means more to you - your family and their traditions or forging a new path where your family continues their traditions mostly without you, because those traditions bring them collective happiness.

ETA: There is a Muslim family, friends of my husband, and the youngest son has a boyfriend / partner (don't know how serious they are) - he and his partner come to his family's public celebrations sometimes, but he doesn't join them for community events - maybe he is not interested and he and his family have found a relatively happy compromise.

[jeremyp]

Gabriella talks a lot of sense and we cannot really assess people from different cultures, certainly not judge them.

Why can't we judge them?

[Brownie]

Because we do not fully understand jeremy.  We are not them.  We can look at a different way of life and, by our assessment, believe it isn't for us or that we wouldn't like it but judging means saying certain values are wrong.   Who are we to say what is wrong when it comes to family values of a different community?  Especially if it works quite well for the majority.  If people are unhappy with how things are they'll make adjustments without our input.

[Owlswing]

If people are unhappy with how things are they'll make adjustments without our input.

Tell that to all the raped abused and beaten women of India and Pakistan and Bengladesh.

[floo]

Tell that to all the raped abused and beaten women of India and Pakistan and Bengladesh.

Exactly! If a culture allows turns a blind eye to evil acts it should be judged, and pressure put on it to change.

[Spud]

Morning Shaker, I'll answer one point now as am a bit puched for time.

And this is precisely the spot where your would-be argument collapses, since you draw an entirely artificial and ad hoc distinction between two scenarios with precisely the same effect or outcome, or rather the lack of one.

As Gabriella pointed out, though, in hetero couples the anatomy allows sex.

Form isn't always function and you still can't get that ought (or, as is invariably the case, ought not) from an is.

Structure governs function - one of the principles of Osteopathy.

[Sebastian Toe]

Morning Shaker, I'll answer one point now as am a bit puched for time.As Gabriella pointed out, though, in hetero couples the anatomy allows sex.

Sex? as in
physical ​activity between ​people ​involving the ​sexual ​organs:
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/sex

I'm quite sure that non 'hetero' couples' anatomy allows that! 

[floo]

I am wondering if spud is a gay in denial?

[Aruntraveller]

I always think of Boxing.

Two men fighting each other and possibly giving themselves brain damage is never called unnatural, in fact they are more often than not admired as sportsmen.

Two men loving each other - and whoa, not in front of the horses.

Some people have seriously warped minds. 

[floo]

I always think of Boxing.

Two men fighting each other and possibly giving themselves brain damage is never called unnatural, in fact they are more often than not admired as sportsmen.

Two men loving each other - and whoa, not in front of the horses.

Some people have seriously warped minds. 

Agreed.

[Shaker]

I always think of Boxing.

Two men fighting each other and possibly giving themselves brain damage is never called unnatural, in fact they are more often than not admired as sportsmen.

Two men loving each other - and whoa, not in front of the horses.

Some people have seriously warped minds. 

One thing that I've noticed - I don't know if it's relevant to anything but I'll throw it out there - is that some people spend an awful lot of time and effort talking about sex between people of the same sex, but practically never once mention the word love in the same context.

Curiouser and curiouser said Alice.

[Aruntraveller]

One thing that I've noticed - I don't know if it's relevant to anything but I'll throw it out there - is that some people spend an awful lot of time and effort talking about sex between people of the same sex, but practically never once mention the word love in the same context.

Curiouser and curiouser said Alice.

There will no doubt be a word for it - but I think they are downgrading the relationships by focussing on the purely physical aspect of it.

[Brownie]

Tell that to all the raped abused and beaten women of India and Pakistan and Bengladesh.

Oh really, why are you bringing up extremes?  Hard cases never prove anything.  I was talking about ordinary reasonable families, such as you and I know, and you know it.  Can't believe you chimed in with that one - with floo, unthinking, hot on your tail.
We have raped, abused and beaten women in England too - you only have to look at the news to hear about them.  Plus [lenty of child abuse.  I don't go around thinking everyone is a potential abuser and neither do you, hopefully