Jesus died, not such a big deal!

[Hope]

The world is to say the least rather full of living things every single one of which has been shaped and brought to its current form by evolution, Vlad.

And in what way does that therefore mean that humanity - perhaps the whole of created evolution - doesn't need salvation, Shakes?  Incidentally, are you a 'nature' or 'nurture' supporter?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Humans don't need saving by any deity, we are the authors of our own destiny and must concentrate on putting right what is wrong with the world.

....Only the sentimental would believe we can.
However we are going back into the antitheists moral comfort Zone, where they individually are one of the Good guys in society and other elements spoil there messianic efforts to make the world a better place........Dangerous sentimental nonsense which misses the point if you ask me.

[Shaker]

Yep.........So what?

So your post (#13) was arrant twaddle.

[Shaker]

And in what way does that therefore mean that humanity - perhaps the whole of created evolution - doesn't need salvation, Shakes?  Incidentally, are you a 'nature' or 'nurture' supporter?

I'm not discussing "salvation" as it's a nonsense. I'm refuting Vlad's bilge in #13. Keep up.

[ippy]

That is your opinion.  I'd suggest that the horrors that we hear about on a daily basis suggest that humanity does need salvation.

I really can't see any kind of logic in this salvation thing of yours Hope, other than I wouldn't want anyone to be crucified the whole thing about this chap being executed and supposedly coming back to life doesn't make any worthwhile sense to me, I suppose the Martyr bit could figure in some way or another, but the rest of it who cares and those that do care it still doesn't make sense to me.

Why you even think it's a part of reality?  Pass it's all yours.

I can live a decent life without any of that.

ippy

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So your post (#13) was arrant twaddle.

No.
I think you fell for the old antitheist fallacy that anyone who disagrees with Dr Dawkins is a biblical literalist creationist.

Only people who find science gives them a mystical wow and who are linguistic pirates would come out with a title like that.

It is ironic that he chose what is an historically acknowledged and obvious piece of carnival hype like ''The greatest show on Earth''.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Vlad,

He got the title of his book from a T shirt he was given by an anonymous well wisher which read "Evolution, The Greatest Show on Earth, The Only Game in Town" and that bloody atheist Waterstone assistant is a damned liar, I asked for a book which would help me understand evolution more fully and not be full of digs at creationists, actually Dawkins calls them history deniers, deluded to the point of perversity, hell what did I expect! it's good old Dickie at his best

Gonnagle.

PS: It is actually quite a good book, a bit plodding at times, just like his God Delusion, but it is full of little interesting facts, enough to keep me entertained, oh! and it has pictures, he must have known I would want to read his book

[Rhiannon]

I'd disagree, Rhi.  For all the legislation that existed in Western Europe and elsewhere over the centuries requiring people to attend church, there is no evidence that church attendance equated (or equates) with belief in Christ.  I'd go as far as to suggest that it hasn't been that big deal for many people for the past two thousand years: as long as they attended church (which coud be a useful social process), they could believe what they wanted to - and perhaps didn't even bother attending church regularly.

Read what I said again.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Dear Vlad,

He got the title of his book from a T shirt he was given by an anonymous well wisher which read "Evolution, The Greatest Show on Earth, The Only Game in Town" and that bloody atheist Waterstone assistant is a damned liar, I asked for a book which would help me understand evolution more fully and not be full of digs at creationists, actually Dawkins calls them history deniers, deluded to the point of perversity, hell what did I expect! it's good old Dickie at his best

Gonnagle.

Sounds like a typical Murdstone sales pitch. They worship the Dawk at Puddingstones don't you know?

Still Richard Dawkins .......in a tee shirt......phwoooaaaarrrrr.

Thanks Mr G, you've made an old man very happy.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

That is your opinion.  I'd suggest that the horrors that we hear about on a daily basis suggest that humanity does need salvation.

Since we hear about these horrors on a daily basis exactly what did the death of Jesus save us from?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Since we hear about these horrors on a daily basis exactly what did the death of Jesus save us from?

The character destroying consequences of our actions.
I remember seeing on TV a group of men and women being rounded up in Ruanda after they had massacred a village. They had been previously law abiding and kind neighbours to those they had slaughtered their expression was not so much realisation of what they had done but self horror in something that they had lost in themselves in the time of madness.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

The character destroying consequences of our actions.
I remember seeing on TV a group of men and women being rounded up in Ruanda after they had massacred a village. They had been previously law abiding and kind neighbours to those they had slaughtered their expression was not so much realisation of what they had done but self horror in something that they had lost in themselves in the time of madness.

ehh,

So despite the death of Jesus they still slaughtered people and then felt guilty about it.

A great comfort to the victims I'm sure.

So again who was saved?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

ehh,

So despite the death of Jesus they still slaughtered people and then felt guilty about it.

A great comfort to the victims I'm sure.

So again who was saved?

Self excuse is the preserve of atheism.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

Self excuse is the preserve of atheism.

What are you on about?

In what way did the death of Jesus Save us?

Hope said we need saving because there was a lot of horrible stuff going on. However, Jesus is dead and horrible stuff is still going on. You gave an example of something horrible. In what way would your example have been more horrible if Jesus had not died to save us?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What are you on about?

In what way did the death of Jesus Save us?

Hope said we need saving because there was a lot of horrible stuff going on. However, Jesus is dead and horrible stuff is still going on. You gave an example of something horrible. In what way would your example have been more horrible if Jesus had not died to save us?

The consequences of sin will be revealed at the judgment. Even Kant said that the consequences of our actions will not be fully known until the end of history. You seem to think in terms of speedily transacted  actions with shallow consequences.

So there is a sense in that we are both saved and will be saved.......if we have sought the saviour.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

You seem to think in terms of speedily transacted  actions with shallow consequences.

So genocide (your example) is something of shallow consequences?

So there is a sense in that we are both saved and will be saved.......if we have sought the saviour.

Well I'm asking about the will be saved. What is different now than before (the alleged) crucifixion and resurrection? If there had been no more wars or disease you might have something, but how do you know that is has had any effect in terms of saving us?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So genocide (your example) is something of shallow consequences?

Well I'm asking about the will be saved. What is different now than before (the alleged) crucifixion and resurrection? If there had been no more wars or disease you might have something, but how do you know that is has had any effect in terms of saving us?

How many people are actually trying Christianity out personally?
It seems that for centuries people have seen it in political, social and cultural terms so have swung a nominal Christianity between the two foci of it being a political, social and cultural base of power or something to be oppressed in those contexts.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

How many people are actually trying Christianity out personally?

Lots of people apparently.

Anyway it's irrelavent, either Jesus dying saved us or it didn't.

[Shaker]

The consequences of sin will be revealed at the judgment.

Can we have something a bit more concrete, please?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Can we have something a bit more concrete, please?

How about a motorway flyover?

[Shaker]

How about a motorway flyover?

Well, that would do. At least they're real.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Well, that would do. At least they're real.

....and concrete.

[jeremyp]

Since when did any of the others you refer to provide salvation for the whole of humanity, Floo?

Salvation from what?

[ippy]

Salvation from what?

Exactly JP, I always wonder what the likes of Hope are on about; I understand the words they use when they describe what it is they mean by salvation but I cannot see any sensible reason to think that way,so as per your question, salvation from what?

ippy

[Leonard James]

Exactly JP, I always wonder what the likes of Hope are on about; I understand the words they use when they describe what it is they mean by salvation but I cannot see any sensible reason to think that way,so as per your question, salvation from what?

ippy

The cartoon that Shaker put up recently answers that. To save us from what he will do if we don't believe in him!