Jesus died, not such a big deal!

[Hope]

The cartoon that Shaker put up recently answers that. To save us from what he will do if we don't believe in him! 

And that is why the cartoon is so poor.  If anything, its to save us from what we will do to ourselves if we don't believe in Him.  OK, if you don't believe that humanity is a pretty nasty piece of work, happily destroying each other and the world in which it lives, then you don't see the need for humanity to be saved from itself.  Those of us who see events unfolding on the news that illustrate man's inhumanity to man believe differently.

Regarding what God will do to us if we don't believe in Him - the Bible makes that clear: he'll leave us to the consequences of our own choices.  In fact, he doesn't actually need to do anything.  It is we who condemn ourselves to whatever our future holds.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

And that is why the cartoon is so poor.  If anything, its to save us from what we will do to ourselves if we don't believe in Him.  OK, if you don't believe that humanity is a pretty nasty piece of work, happily destroying each other and the world in which it lives, then you don't see the need for humanity to be saved from itself.  Those of us who see events unfolding on the news that illustrate man's inhumanity to man believe differently.

But this is the only possible world that can exist if an omniscient, omnipotent god created it.

If humanity is a nasty piece of work you only have the designer to blame.

Regarding what God will do to us if we don't believe in Him - the Bible makes that clear: he'll leave us to the consequences of our own choices.  In fact, he doesn't actually need to do anything.  It is we who condemn ourselves to whatever our future holds.

What a nasty threat. I don't believe in Him because I a never seen anything to convince me he exists. So unless I do come to believe in Him what do you think the consequences will be that I face?

[Leonard James]

And that is why the cartoon is so poor.  If anything, its to save us from what we will do to ourselves if we don't believe in Him.  OK, if you don't believe that humanity is a pretty nasty piece of work, happily destroying each other and the world in which it lives, then you don't see the need for humanity to be saved from itself.  Those of us who see events unfolding on the news that illustrate man's inhumanity to man believe differently.

Regarding what God will do to us if we don't believe in Him - the Bible makes that clear: he'll leave us to the consequences of our own choices.  In fact, he doesn't actually need to do anything.  It is we who condemn ourselves to whatever our future holds.

Oh dear me no ...all wrong thinking. I really don't think there is any point in me trying to explain all the wrongness to you, because you will simply close your eyes to it.

Suffice it to say that humanity is neither bad nor good ... it is just a natural phenomenon produced by evolution. It contains all kinds of behaviour, some of which is good (in our eyes) and some that is bad. but it is all natural to the individual concerned.

For our own survival and good we have to work out a moral code, which is what we have done, based on the cooperative instincts of our species. That moral code must control the bad behaviour and encourage the good.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The cartoon that Shaker put up recently answers that. To save us from what he will do if we don't believe in him! 

I don't believe that........so are you going to engage with what I believe or carry on in denial or with your caricature view point.

[Leonard James]

I don't believe that........so are you going to engage with what I believe or carry on in denial or with your caricature view point.

I can only do that if you tell me what you do believe.

The cartoon merely points out that some Christian teaching tells us that we must believe in Jesus to be saved, and if we don't believe we won't be saved.

That's all.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

I can only do that if you tell me what you do believe.

The cartoon merely points out that some Christian teaching tells us that we must believe in Jesus to be saved, and if we don't believe we won't be saved.

That's all.

The second paragraph of Hope's msg 50 seems to say exactly that. Although most people who hold that view are a bit coy about what the consequences of not being saved are. It might be quite nice.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I can only do that if you tell me what you do believe.

The cartoon merely points out that some Christian teaching tells us that we must believe in Jesus to be saved, and if we don't believe we won't be saved.

That's all.

Well I believe that Jesus saves in the truest sense. From the results of our own sins of commission (commit sin) and omission (omitting to act when we should. These are sins that we commit and are the authors of...Not God, Not the devil. So Jesus saves us from the damage to the self that these do even though he has no moral obligation to do so.

Since these sins are in a sense our property he has no legal right to take them away so he invites us to an offer of taking them away.

If we turn away the hand of the saviour then we have turned away salvation or saving in it's truest and purest sense.

[Leonard James]

Well I believe that Jesus saves in the truest sense. From the results of our own sins of commission (commit sin) and omission (omitting to act when we should. These are sins that we commit and are the authors of...Not God, Not the devil. So Jesus saves us from the damage to the self that these do even though he has no moral obligation to do so.

Since these since are in a sense our property he has no legal right to take them away so he invites us to an offer of taking them away.

If we turn away the hand of the saviour then we have turned away salvation or saving in it's truest and purest sense.

But believing in Jesus is not a matter of choice, Johnny. We cannot make ourselves believe something which our reason doesn't accept.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

Since these sins are in a sense our property he has no legal right to take them away so he invites us to an offer of taking them away.

If we turn away the hand of the saviour then we have turned away salvation or saving in it's truest and purest sense.

Well according to you I have turned down this offer. So what are the consequences? What would be different in my life if today I did believe and accept the offer?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Well according to you I have turned down this offer. So what are the consequences? What would be different in my life if today I did believe and accept the offer?

I have no say as to whether you have or not turned it down........that is a matter between you and God since he is making the offer to you.

You would be right with God. A relationship with him would be forged.

[Hope]

Since we hear about these horrors on a daily basis exactly what did the death of Jesus save us from?

Despite what some like to have us believe, pretty well all humanity does wrong given the opportunity.  As said people also like us to believe, we have likely improved in our attitudes to each other and even to some of the more horrendous potential behaviours.  You can argue that this development is a result of Jesus' death and resurrection and its impact on humanity.

[Shaker]

Despite what some like to have us believe, pretty well all humanity does wrong given the opportunity.  As said people also like us to believe, we have likely improved in our attitudes to each other and even to some of the more horrendous potential behaviours.  You can argue that this development is a result of Jesus' death and resurrection and its impact on humanity.

Really? Including amongst people who don't believe in Jesus?

How then do you explain the fact - it is one - that human behaviour has improved, living standards and societal health the best they've ever been for the greatest number at a time when religious adherence has withered?

[Hope]

But believing in Jesus is not a matter of choice, Johnny. We cannot make ourselves believe something which our reason doesn't accept.

And nor is much of what we do and think a matter of choice, Len.  There are many things that we have to accept without recourse to reason.

[Shaker]

And nor is much of what we do and think a matter of choice, Len.  There are many things that we have to accept without recourse to reason.

Like?

[Hope]

Really? Including amongst people who don't believe in Jesus?

Well, God is able to use people who don't believe in him (think, for instance, of the example of Artaxerxes in Nehemiah 2).

[Shaker]

Well, God is able to use people who don't believe in him (think, for instance, of the example of Artaxerxes in Nehemiah 2).

Pure assertion, of course.

[Hope]

Like?

OK, when you fall in love, do you analyse the situation scientifically and rationally?  If you fear or worry about something, do you think rationally about why the fear of worry exists?

[Hope]

Pure assertion, of course.

It might be pure assertion, but then you can't prove that it isn't also truth (don't forget that assertion and truth aren't necessarily exclusive).

[Rhiannon]

Well, God is able to use people who don't believe in him (think, for instance, of the example of Artaxerxes in Nehemiah 2).

So God will use people who don't believe in him for good and then chuck them in the burny burny place for not worshipping him anyway. Nice.

[Shaker]

OK, when you fall in love, do you analyse the situation scientifically and rationally?

It's certainly something that can be approached scientifically - and has been and is.

If you fear or worry about something, do you think rationally about why the fear of worry exists?

Yes, I do.

[floo]

Well, God is able to use people who don't believe in him (think, for instance, of the example of Artaxerxes in Nehemiah 2).

The Biblical author was made an assertion, without any evidence, just like you.

[Rhiannon]

OK, when you fall in love, do you analyse the situation scientifically and rationally?  If you fear or worry about something, do you think rationally about why the fear of worry exists?

Rationalising fear is at the heart of many therapies including CBT. It's good for us.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

Despite what some like to have us believe, pretty well all humanity does wrong given the opportunity.  As said people also like us to believe, we have likely improved in our attitudes to each other and even to some of the more horrendous potential behaviours. 

Actually I would say that most people would do wrong under certain circumstances rather than having the opportunity. If I were to walk into a shop and find it unattended I would not steal anything. However, if I was starving and felt unjustly treated by society then I might be able to justify it to myself.

You can argue that this development is a result of Jesus' death and resurrection and its impact on humanity.

Well go on then argue it.

I also note you did not answer the second part of my post about what the consequences are of unbelief, or indeed the issue of how a world created by an omniscient, omnipotent god could be any other way.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

It might be pure assertion, but then you can't prove that it isn't also truth (don't forget that assertion and truth aren't necessarily exclusive).

Oh dear.. there is a name for that logical blunder.

 ::)I wonder what it is.

[Leonard James]

And nor is much of what we do and think a matter of choice, Len.  There are many things that we have to accept without recourse to reason.

Which is no help at all, is it! I can't choose to believe in God because there is no evidence for him and plenty against.