Jesus died, not such a big deal!

[Gonnagle]

Dear ippy,

Much simpler than that, when Floos hubby says he was looking after the kids, what he really means, sorry I was in Peter Pan mode, damn the dishes and chores I just want to play, science backs this up, man ( not woman ) is the Ape which never grew up, woman mature faster than men, men are just big kids.

Imagine a world if the female of the species had been dominant, would we have had less war, war is a messy business, women hate mess.

Gonnagle.

[floo]

Dear ippy,

Much simpler than that, when Floos hubby says he was looking after the kids, what he really means, sorry I was in Peter Pan mode, damn the dishes and chores I just want to play, science backs this up, man ( not woman ) is the Ape which never grew up, woman mature faster than men, men are just big kids.

Imagine a world if the female of the species had been dominant, would we have had less war, war is a messy business, women hate mess.

Gonnagle.

WELL SAID, you are so right, even though you are a guy, poor thing!

[Khatru]

Some Christians sing the praises of Jesus as he supposedly died to 'save' us. But even if that was true, what was the big deal? Other people have died when saving others and stayed dead, not having the supposed privilege of popping up alive three days later. Therefore people who deliberately put themselves in harm's way to save others, knowing they will probably be killed in the attempt, are more worthy of praise than Jesus, who knew he wasn't going to stay dead for long, if the Bible stories had any credence .

Nicely put.

Going to your "death" knowing that you'll be back is hardly a sacrifice and pales into insignificance when compared to those who have died for their non-beliefs thinking that death is final.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Nicely put.

Going to your "death" knowing that you'll be back is hardly a sacrifice and pales into insignificance when compared to those who have died for their non-beliefs thinking that death is final.

What happened to ''why have you forsaken me?''.
Khatru is back with his bible editing scissors.

[BeRational]

What happened to ''why have you forsaken me?''.
Khatru is back with his bible editing scissors.

So you think Jesus did not come back and is actually dead.

Welcome to reality.

[ippy]

Dear ippy,

Much simpler than that, when Floos hubby says he was looking after the kids, what he really means, sorry I was in Peter Pan mode, damn the dishes and chores I just want to play, science backs this up, man ( not woman ) is the Ape which never grew up, woman mature faster than men, men are just big kids.

Imagine a world if the female of the species had been dominant, would we have had less war, war is a messy business, women hate mess.

Gonnagle.

I've got to give you that one Gonners it's just that the toys get bigger and more expensive, the mess bit I have to confess maybe that's my feminine side I'm the tidiest one here in this household, I'm always in trouble for putting things away, not so much away, but, as I see it, putting them where they should be.

Sorry about the tidy bit Gonners.

ippy   

[Brownie]

Nicely put.

Going to your "death" knowing that you'll be back is hardly a sacrifice and pales into insignificance when compared to those who have died for their non-beliefs thinking that death is final.

A pretty horrible, gruesome death to have to go to Khatru.  He was fully human after all so experienced fear and pain the same as anyone else.  He also had the choice.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So you think Jesus did not come back and is actually dead.

Welcome to reality.

No God raised him from the dead. Jesus however was convinced that God had abandoned him.

Reality?........................... Gordon Be Rational is another person who believes there is no God.

[Khatru]

What happened to ''why have you forsaken me?''.
Khatru is back with his bible editing scissors.

You do know that Jesus didn't actually say "Why have you forsaken me?", don't you?

It's a common mistranslation based on something that was originally incorrectly heard.

What Jesus actually said was "Why have you foreskinned me?"

This is how we know that Jesus was not a Jew.

[Khatru]

A pretty horrible, gruesome death to have to go to Khatru.  He was fully human after all so experienced fear and pain the same as anyone else.  He also had the choice.

But he knew he wasn't going to stay dead.

As was commonplace in those far-off days, he returned from the dead.

[BeRational]

No God raised him from the dead. Jesus however was convinced that God had abandoned him.

Reality?........................... Gordon Be Rational is another person who believes there is no God.

Who said I believed that?

I am prepared to die on the same basis as Jesus.

I am even prepared to stay dead for 6 days, making me twice as good as him.

[Khatru]

No God raised him from the dead. Jesus however was convinced that God had abandoned him

Jesus thought he was abandoned? Yes, that's true if you just stick to the Gospel of Mark.

Perhaps you'd better check out what Luke says and you'll see a Jesus who felt anything but abandoned.......

The Jesus in Luke has no need to ask the supreme cosmic mega-being why he's been forsaken. This Jesus knows the reason he must die and he spends his dying moments showing more concern for others than for himself.

Rather than uttering a cry of despairing hopelessness, Jesus prays to the supreme xosmic mega-being and says "Father, into your hands I commend my spirit". This is not a Jesus who feels he's been abandoned; this is a Jesus who knows full well why he has to die and what will be happening afterwards.  After all, he even told one of the thieves that "you will be with me in paradise".  Yes, Jesus knew exactly what was happening and he certainly didn't feel he had been abandoned.

Damn those biblical contradictions!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Jesus thought he was abandoned? Yes, that's true if you just stick to the Gospel of Mark.

Rather than uttering a cry of despairing hopelessness, Jesus prays to the supreme xosmic mega-being and says "Father, into your hands I commend my spirit". This is not a Jesus who feels he's been abandoned; this is a Jesus who knows full well why he has to die and what will be happening afterwards.  After all, he even told one of the thieves that "you will be with me in paradise".  Yes, Jesus knew exactly what was happening and he certainly didn't feel he had been abandoned.

I suppose you could argue that in your interpretation of Luke, the trouble is that you make the crucifixion seem like one flippant cakewalk......and that just makes your interpretation not credible.........I half expected you to include him sending out for a pizza or two. You completely discounted Mark and there is nothing to eliminate the period of doubt and abandonment from the crucifixion account or contradictory to Luke I'm afraid.

[Brownie]

I'm with you on that Jon.  Biblical scholars believe that the gospel of Mark was written quite a long time before Luke's, within twenty years of Jesus's crucifixion and he may have known Jesus and witnessed the crucifixion.   Luke was a Hellenistic Jew and I don't think He knew Jesus in the flesh.  Of course none of this is written in tablets of stone but it seems right as far as anyone can tell.  Therefore Mark has a better recall of events.  His gospel is also short and to the point, very clear.

[Khatru]

OK, so you're both saying that Luke is unreliable and your preference is for Mark.

That stuff Jesus is supposed to have said like "Father forgive them, they know not what they do" and “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” and “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” wasn't actually said then.

You both prefer Mark's account of a silent, confused Jesus who felt he had been abandoned by his father as opposed to Luke's version of a Jesus who knew the score, wasn't abandoned and was in communion with his father.

No probs, Luke got it wrong - I get you.

That still leaves the problem of a contradiction between the two quite different accounts of Jesus as he faced his temporary death:

You've got Mark's account of the death of Jesus as set out at Mark 15:16-39.  Here Jesus doesn't say a word until he's on the cross and he utters his cry of dereliction.  This is the Jesus you both want to see...a clueless Jesus who doesn't know what's going on and genuinely wants to know why the supreme cosmic mega-being has left him like this.  It's a Jesus full of despair and that's the way he dies (albeit a temporary death).

Contrast that with the Jesus that Luke describes in Luke 23:26-4 .  This is the Jesus you both don't want to see.....a Jesus who is anything but silent.  Even when he's nailed to the cross Jesus knows what the score is and he appears to be in communion with the supreme cosmic mega-being as he tells his father to forgive them. Then Jesus says "Father, into your hands I commend my spirit".  This is a Jesus who has no need to ask the supreme cosmic mega-being why he's been forsaken. This Jesus knows the reason he must die and just like you'd expect from Jesus, he expresses concern for others rather than himself.

The contradiction remains and you've both chosen your preferred account.

[Brownie]

Gordon Bennett Khatru!  If there are two or more accounts of the same thing, about the same person, they are bound to differ in emphasis.  It doesn't make one right and the other(s) wrong.  The experiences of the writers of the gospels are unique to each of them and all are worth exploring.
Matthew 27:32-56, Mark 15:21-38, Luke 23:26-49, and John 19:16-37
Mark is often underrated, there is more scholarship surrounding the others but they are all about Jesus and told from differing perspectives.  That's all.

[Khatru]

Gordon Bennett Khatru!  If there are two or more accounts of the same thing, about the same person, they are bound to differ in emphasis.  It doesn't make one right and the other(s) wrong.  The experiences of the writers of the gospels are unique to each of them and all are worth exploring.
Matthew 27:32-56, Mark 15:21-38, Luke 23:26-49, and John 19:16-37
Mark is often underrated, there is more scholarship surrounding the others but they are all about Jesus and told from differing perspectives.  That's all.

Of course neither of them were wrong.  I just showed a fundamental contradiction in the character of Jesus as depicted by the two different accounts.  The account of what Jesus said as told in Mark and Luke are contradictory.  It's not a case of one being right and the other wrong.

The respective authors of these accounts were their own people - individuals saying it in the manner in which they wanted to say it.  Letting them have their say is what we should do and that's irrespective of any inconsistencies, errors or contradictions that may show.

What you're doing is making one overarching story of Jesus from what are, in some cases, quite different accounts.  Tell me...Is it safe to say that in your take on the Gospels, Jesus says and does everything that they say he did? 

Well, maybe not as you did expressly state that you favoured Mark's version of events over what Luke had to say. 

Unlike you, I don't believe the tales of the Gospels but whatever messages that Mark, Luke, etc, where trying to convey are glossed over by you and are lost in translation. To look at the stories in your way means stripping the writers of their integrity as an author and replacing their meaning with your own.