'Sin'

[Owlswing]

I got into serious trouble once talking about Wales;

I was in a pub and said that only two good things come out of Cardiff, rugby players and prostitutes.

This big mean looking bloke came up to me and said, my wife's from Cardiff.

Quick as a flash I replied, what position does she play.

I'll leave a space                                 for Hopey to tell us he heard it 30 years ago.

Forty - more like!

[Brownie]

Well Cardiff is the capital and capital cities are never typical of the wider country.  I lived in Cardiff for six months when I was very young, before married.  Interesting experience!

Floo, sorry if I appeared to be insulting your intelligence, it wasn't meant that way.  You seemed to miss the humour in the references to sheeps and goats.

[Sassy]

The word 'sin' is a little word, which seems not only to apply to wrongdoing on which all decent people would agree,
 but also to things which no decent person would consider wrong,

Being decent has nothing to do with what the sin applies to. Here we are an atheist (by evidence of their posts) trampling in and making assertions which she can neither prove or support with evidence. They are merely your opinion and therefore no basis in truth about the discussion of sin.

like disbelief in the Biblical deity, homosexuality, sex before marriage in a consenting adult relationship, masturbation, women being equal to men in all respects and much, much more.

Where does the definition and existence of the meaning of sin come from?

In religious context it is the violating of Gods will. Which has nothing to do with opinion. It is a fact in it's own right.
If homosexuality not against the law on earth, it does not make it any less a sin by Gods laws and the violating of those laws.
As an atheist, what does God or the bible have to do with you? No one stops you being gay or living a gay life. It does not stop you having sex before marriage, masturbating if it be your pleasure or women being equal to men.
So what is the problem? Or are you saying that people have no freedom to believe what God teaches that you are right and everyone else wrong?

The fact is the Christian and Christ has absolutely NOTHING to do with you or the world. They are chosen people set aside for the Glory of God and live accordingly. We understand what Christ says when he said:- " My kingdom is not of this world".
Like you tell Christians they have no right to 'force' their faith on others (they tell you it cannot be done -deaf ears) you do the very same thing in trying to force your views and beliefs on others.

You lose everytime because you are more guilty of the things you accuse other believers of doing.

I put into practise some of the ten commandments, not stealing, lying, murdering or being jealous of others, but the rest are unreasonable, in my opinion.

So you have never hated or disliked a person in such a way to treat them differently?
Arrogantly you are bragging by saying you have never lied, been jealous of murdered.
But Christ likened hatred to murder. How do you feel about your grandmother and parents?
So even how you perceive murder and treat others does not really match up to biblical proportion of things.

[floo]

Jesus was daft if he likened hate to actual murder! I didn't hate my parents, and I didn't actually hate my paternal grandmother, even though I disliked her intensely because of the ghastly way she treated me as a child.

[Aruntraveller]

The fact is the Christian and Christ has absolutely NOTHING to do with you or the world.

That sorts out the Bishops in the House of Lords then

[Sassy]

1.You shall have no other gods before Me.
As there is no evidence it exists that is totally unreasonable.

So who wrote the laws on stone with his finger and gave them to Moses?

2.You shall not make idols.
Why not?

You need an answer to that one? How about all the children sacrificed to those pagan idols in history.
Do you ever real think beyond the command to the reasoning?

3.You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Why not, as again there is no evidence it exists.

There in that one word lies the clue. If he is not your God does it apply to you. If he doesn't exist why are you using his name?

4.Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
I am a non believer

So you never go to a service at your daughters church or anyone elses and take part by being in the congregation?
So how is anyone to know you are a none believer if you attend services. I take it you never attended when she was made a priest officially, receiving holy orders. Or when she came to her own first parish?
Just because a none believer it did not stop you attending religious services and ceremonies, did it?

5.Honor your father and your mother.
I would only give them respect if they deserved it.

They clothed, fed and kept you till you could support yourself. That type of respect should be given without hesitation it was definitely earned.

[/b]6.You shall not murder.
7.You shall not commit adultery.
8.You shall not steal.
9.You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.
10.You shall not covet.


Commandments 6/10 are valid.

And you have broken most of them, if God is real.
You bear false witness against God.
You covet your way of life in such a way you despise and attack those different to yourself.
You steal eternal life from those whom you preach there is no God, to.
[/quote]

Maybe you might want to rethink what you assume your life is and isn't by other thoughts and beliefs. That is other than your own. You might want to accept you might be wrong.

[Sassy]

That sorts out the Bishops in the House of Lords then

Made me laugh, Trent...

All I can say is... you wish!..

[floo]

So who wrote the laws on stone with his finger and gave them to Moses?

You need an answer to that one? How about all the children sacrificed to those pagan idols in history.
Do you ever real think beyond the command to the reasoning?
There in that one word lies the clue. If he is not your God does it apply to you. If he doesn't exist why are you using his name?

So you never go to a service at your daughters church or anyone elses and take part by being in the congregation?
So how is anyone to know you are a none believer if you attend services. I take it you never attended when she was made a priest officially, receiving holy orders. Or when she came to her own first parish?
Just because a none believer it did not stop you attending religious services and ceremonies, did it?
They clothed, fed and kept you till you could support yourself. That type of respect should be given without hesitation it was definitely earned.

And you have broken most of them, if God is real.
You bear false witness against God.
You covet your way of life in such a way you despise and attack those different to yourself.
You steal eternal life from those whom you preach there is no God, to.


Maybe you might want to rethink what you assume your life is and isn't by other thoughts and beliefs. That is other than your own. You might want to accept you might be wrong.

Sass as usual you are talking complete garbage. If you really cared about your faith you wouldn't be bringing it into disrepute as you are doing with each of your posts. Instead of pointing out the faults of others maybe you should be searching your own conscience and asking your version of god to forgive you. One day you might be held accountable for your actions and end up in hell like the rest of us nasty heathen!

[Sassy]

Sass as usual you are talking complete garbage. If you really cared about your faith you wouldn't be bringing it into disrepute as you are doing with each of your posts. Instead of pointing out the faults of others maybe you should be searching your own conscience and asking your version of god to forgive you. One day you might be held accountable for your actions and end up in hell like the rest of us nasty heathen!

All lies... I thought you never told lies??? My post has nothing harmful in. Your faults are really self-evident in that you just like being nasty to others. There you go again with the remarks about you being a nasty heathen.
If that was what you believed you would not be insulting others and attacking them.
You see how every time you show no love for anyone but yourself. If anyone disagrees or shows a different understanding you attack. Had you read correctly they were all valid points. Points which you could not answer just attacked the writer. There goes your sincerity through the window.

My actions are that we are to love one another. Your actions are to destroy and tear down.
Truth hurts, doesn't it.

[ippy]

The only sin about

I'm not sure but I think you have to pay to come out of Wales on that bridge of theirs but it's free to go there, I don't know if their's any significance in that?

ippy

[Leonard James]

 You might want to accept you might be wrong.

There's certainly no chance of you doing that, is there? 

[Sassy]

There's certainly no chance of you doing that, is there? 

Reality Check!

There is absolutely no chance of you accepting that the fact that it is not wrong to believe something we have experienced to be correct. Furthermore it would be untruthful to think what we have personally experienced could be wrong to please others.
Truth is about our own acceptance and our own reasons for believing it to be so.
How about some sincerity on your part that you could be wrong about what we believe and our reasons for doing so.
This would give you the chance to prove that it is not you who believes they cannot be wrong.
It would also show you accept you do not know if you are right or wrong.
 

[Leonard James]

Reality Check!

There is absolutely no chance of you accepting that the fact that it is not wrong to believe something we have experienced to be correct. Furthermore it would be untruthful to think what we have personally experienced could be wrong to please others.
Truth is about our own acceptance and our own reasons for believing it to be so.
How about some sincerity on your part that you could be wrong about what we believe and our reasons for doing so.
This would give you the chance to prove that it is not you who believes they cannot be wrong.
It would also show you accept you do not know if you are right or wrong.
 

I am always prepared to admit that I might be wrong. You never are.

That is the difference between us.

[Owlswing]

I was, and am, under the impression that 'sin' was in the breach of the laws laid down (supposedly) by the God of the Christians as set out in the bible.

These laws have never, so far as I am aware, had any authority, in so far as it is possible, in this country (the U K), to be taken to either the criminal or the civil courts for breaching any of said God's laws.

Thus any 'sin' only has a value when committed by a committed Christian and, therefore, has absolutely no relevance to any or all non-Christians.

The only relevance that I can think that 'sin' might have had to a non-Christian was if they were charged with blasphemy, however on May 8, 2008, the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 abolished the common-law offences of blasphemy and blasphemous libel in England and Wales, with effect from 8 July 2008, so even that 'sin' no longer has any meaning for non-Christians.

This being the case I cannot see why any non-Christian, including myself, need waste another second in worrying about what any Christian, no matter how committed, thinks on the matter.

Basically sin has, to the non-Christian population, no relevenace whatsoever! 

Except possibly the sin of putting water into a 21-year-old malt whiskey, and this 'sin' is usually only committed by Americans. 

[Brownie]

Jesus was daft if he likened hate to actual murder! I didn't hate my parents, and I didn't actually hate my paternal grandmother, even though I disliked her intensely because of the ghastly way she treated me as a child.

Murder must start off as 'hate', surely?  Or complete indifference (which sounds somewhat psychopathic), which is a type of hate.  The thought is father to the deed, doesn't automatically end up in a deed but is a seed.

[floo]

I am always prepared to admit that I might be wrong. You never are.

That is the difference between us.

I will admit when I am wrong, but as you say, Sass is never wrong!

[ippy]

Murder must start off as 'hate', surely?  Or complete indifference (which sounds somewhat psychopathic), which is a type of hate.  The thought is father to the deed, doesn't automatically end up in a deed but is a seed.

Psychopathic, lack of empathy, no special feelings either way hate or otherwise, there's a problem and murder is the answer to solving the problem well murder it is, no hate involved, even so these people are aware of the social niceties needed to get on in life and usually quiet intelligent too, so murder is ruled out due to the highly likely disruptive prison factor etc.

The profession that employs the most psychopaths because their qualities suit the things that are needed to be done in order to make a successful career is Banking, surprise surprise.

Channel 4 did a very good documentary about psychopaths sometime last year they, surprisingly, made,a much better job than I've done describing them and how they operate, it might still be available on Chan 4 catch up, a really good dock.

ippy
 

[Brownie]

It sounds familiar ippy, I may have seen it.  I'll check.
PS:  Was it ''Psycopath Night'' ?

[Shaker]

It used to be said that one of the hallmarks of the sociopath is a lack of empathy and therefore a lack of guilt and remorse, but more recent research indicates that sociopaths may well have as much empathy as anyone else, just that they're able to be selective about it and can turn it on and off at will:
https://goo.gl/7JL7uU

[ippy]

It sounds familiar ippy, I may have seen it.  I'll check.
PS:  Was it ''Psycopath Night'' ?

I'm sorry I don't know, wish I could help.

ippy

[ippy]

It used to be said that one of the hallmarks of the sociopath is a lack of empathy and therefore a lack of guilt and remorse, but more recent research indicates that sociopaths may well have as much empathy as anyone else, just that they're able to be selective about it and can turn it on and off at will:
https://goo.gl/7JL7uU

The stuff I was referring to was specifically about psychopaths and I have no idea if sociopaths and psychopaths are one and the same, my niece is heavily into this kind of thing in her professional life but we've been friends since it feels like forever  and are usually pleased to see each other when we meet up from time to time and we're more into family when we do but if I remember we'll have a chat about this very interesting type of mindset, psychopaths, when I have spoken to her I can pass on whatever she has said about them; I'm no expert on the subject, she is.

ippy

[Brownie]

I'm sorry I don't know, wish I could help.

ippy

That's the only one I can find and it is two hours long.  I suppose it could be watched in bits and pieces.  I haven't seen it,  though have a recollection of something along the same lines. 

Sociopaths and psychopaths do differ somewhat.

Later:  Found a BBC documentary and it is on Youtube, in its entirety.  I'm pretty sure this is the one I have seen, or some of it, but will watch it again.  I've already started and it is really interesting (imnsho).  Here is a link if anyone is interested.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVRg4Xgo7Pc

[ippy]

That's the only one I can find and it is two hours long.  I suppose it could be watched in bits and pieces.  I haven't seen it,  though have a recollection of something along the same lines. 

Sociopaths and psychopaths do differ somewhat.

Later:  Found a BBC documentary and it is on Youtube, in its entirety.  I'm pretty sure this is the one I have seen, or some of it, but will watch it again.  I've already started and it is really interesting (imnsho).  Here is a link if anyone is interested.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVRg4Xgo7Pc

I could be wrong about Channel 4 but I still think it was on that channel the programme I'm thinking of, feel free to shoot me down in flames if you find I'm wrong.

The bit of that programme I can remember was that bit about banking is a profession to which psychopaths are well suited, because I've often thought to myself in the past that it's the sort of job that would suit someone that can chop off your financial legs during the day and have a good nights sleep on the same night, going by that program I wasn't that far out.   

ippy

[Owlswing]

I could be wrong about Channel 4 but I still think it was on that channel the programme I'm thinking of, feel free to shoot me down in flames if you find I'm wrong.

The bit of that programme I can remember was that bit about banking is a profession to which psychopaths are well suited, because I've often thought to myself in the past that it's the sort of job that would suit someone that can chop off your financial legs during the day and have a good nights sleep on the same night, going by that program I wasn't that far out.   

ippy

The same goes for the consultants that companies call in to help them decide who gets chopped when they "downsize".

Bastards!

[Brownie]

You're both right about that and I seem to remember something of that ilk in the programme I saw originally, also the media mogul, the late Robert Maxwell was considered by some 'experts' to have been a psychopath.  I really don't know how true that is and it didn't seem fair to me to label him as such, posthumously, on the basis of anecdotes.  Ah well, I'll let you know about the BBC documentary.