Author Topic: 'Sin'  (Read 34066 times)

Étienne d'Angleterre

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Re: 'Sin'
« Reply #100 on: April 09, 2016, 06:22:45 PM »
Ah, the optimism of youth :)

Well if not in this life maybe the next!

Oh no what have I said!
The next life!
Vlad was right I must be a God dodger!

Hope

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Re: 'Sin'
« Reply #101 on: April 09, 2016, 08:04:39 PM »

Bingo!!!!!!!

I've been waiting for the NPF, and here it is.

Where do I go to get my prize money?
Of course you have, becuase you haven't been able to demolish the evidence that you have been presented with - just neatly batted it away by claiming that, because it isn't naturalistic evidence it isn't evidence (even though life is more than just naturalistic) - and none of you have any evidence to support, let alone prove your rather narrow view of life.  I, for one, quite enjoy the accusations becaue it means that yet again you can't give an answer.  It's rather like the occurrence of words like bigot/bigoted on other topic threads.
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

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Gordon

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Re: 'Sin'
« Reply #102 on: April 09, 2016, 08:41:28 PM »
Of course you have, becuase you haven't been able to demolish the evidence that you have been presented with

Where is said evidence then? You haven't presented any.

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and none of you have any evidence to support, let alone prove your rather narrow view of life.

Straw man: I'm not trying to prove anything. You do love your fallacies.

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I, for one, quite enjoy the accusations becaue it means that yet again you can't give an answer.  It's rather like the occurrence of words like bigot/bigoted on other topic threads.

Non sequitur this time - well done you!

Hope

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Re: 'Sin'
« Reply #103 on: April 09, 2016, 08:50:13 PM »
Where is said evidence then? You haven't presented any.
As I and others have said - a sizeable amount has been produced since I joined the board in June 2011. 

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Straw man: I'm not trying to prove anything. You do love your fallacies.
Did I say that you were trying to prove anything?  However, by arguing against something given in evidence, you are trying to prove that the evidence doesn't stand up/hold water.  If you really weren't trying to prove anything, you wouldn't be debating the issue.

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Non sequitur this time - well done you!
By no means a non-sequitur.  Simply a result of some of us starting from starting point G, and others of us starting from starting point T.
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Gordon

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Re: 'Sin'
« Reply #104 on: April 09, 2016, 09:03:35 PM »
As I and others have said - a sizeable amount has been produced since I joined the board in June 2011.

Where? Some links to some posts would be nice.
 
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Did I say that you were trying to prove anything?

You implied that  -re-read your own post, especially where you wrote 'prove'.

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However, by arguing against something given in evidence, you are trying to prove that the evidence doesn't stand up/hold water.

You haven't presented any evidence, all you've done is claim you once did: not the same thing.

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If you really weren't trying to prove anything, you wouldn't be debating the issue.

I'm not: there you go again accusing me of trying to prove things when all I'm doing is pointing out your fallacious reasoning.

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By no means a non-sequitur.  Simply a result of some of us starting from starting point G, and others of us starting from starting point T.

Which reads as yet another non sequitur, since it is a meaningless sentence,

Shaker

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Re: 'Sin'
« Reply #105 on: April 09, 2016, 10:13:13 PM »
As I and others have said - a sizeable amount has been produced since I joined the board in June 2011.
So where is it? Don't wave your hands and pretend that it exists somewhere or other, specify. Provide details. Quote it. Link to it.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: 'Sin'
« Reply #106 on: April 09, 2016, 10:26:04 PM »
Of course you have, becuase you haven't been able to demolish the evidence that you have been presented with - just neatly batted it away by claiming that, because it isn't naturalistic evidence it isn't evidence (even though life is more than just naturalistic)
This of course is your constant assertion, just as the negative proof fallacy is your constant form of aberrant reasoning. It goes without saying that it is also yet another iteration of the aforementioned negative proof fallacy, without which it is becoming increasingly clear that you cannot even post. Twice today alone to my knowledge, for example. (The other instance being on this very thread less than five hours ago, viz., http://goo.gl/goW2Rn ).

You haven't been asked to provide a naturalistic methodology to evaluate these so-called claims of the supernatural; you have been asked to provide any methodology which is objective (that's to say, is shareable and can be investigated and employed by anyone) by which such claims can be scrutinised. That you have consistently failed to provide any such methodology speaks volumes, and lends itself to the entirely reasonable stance that no such methodology even exists.

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and none of you have any evidence to support, let alone prove your rather narrow view of life.
Anything other than a naturalistic view of the universe stands in need of demonstration. You claim to believe in such a thing and claim that you are in possession of a methodology by which supernatural claims can be evaluated, therefore the burden of proof is squarely yours. You have to demonstrate this to be the case. It doesn't go through on the nod with a wave of the hand as you seem to expect; if you intend to be taken seriously (a dubious proposition at best, given your posting history), back up your claims.

But you don't, because you cannot.

You know this; I know this; we all know this. Absolutely nobody is in any way fooled by your constant waffling and hand-waving and the interminable prevarication, evasion and bloviating ... except, very possibly, you.

You bore on about there being more to life than the merely natural (i.e. natural broadly construed here as the world of matter-energy as revealed by physics), and so have been asked multiple times by any number of posters here over a long period of time (many months) to provide an appropriate methodology for the evaluation of these claims. Not a naturalistic methodology, as that's a straw man on your part, adding to your already formidable arsenal of logical fallacies; any methodology which is objective and capable of scrutinising these claims of the soi-disant supernatural and of evaluating their truth or falsity. You have utterly failed to provide any such thing. You recently claimed* that you have previously provided such a methodology somewhere else online and indeed in more than one place, but cannot provide so much as a link to these other places.

Therefore, after so many requests to provide such a methodology, so many ducks, dodges, dives and evasions of the request, claims that it exists elsewhere but a stonewall refusal to provide evidence of this claim, it is perfectly reasonable to conclude that no such methodology exists, that it has never been provided elsewhere as asserted by you, and that as well as being a homophobe, a hypocrite and a pompous braggart, you're no more than a plain old common (very common) or garden liar. The methodology you assert doesn't exist and it has never been provided elsewhere on other online forums.

After all, in saying this there's no evidence that I'm wrong, is there? Where's the evidence that I'm not right?

Remember how easy it is to refute this charge: a clear and thorough exposition of this supposed methodology written up here, or if that is too much work, a URL or URLs to where it has allegedly been posted elsewhere in more than one place (as claimed by you)* would do. If those URLs are too long as-is, a URL tidier such as Tinyurl or Google URL Shortener would do the job beautifully. This is easy stuff.

The floor's all yours.

* Here: http://goo.gl/7raQfK
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 11:02:08 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: 'Sin'
« Reply #107 on: April 09, 2016, 11:00:33 PM »
You do love your fallacies.
I've never known anybody to love his massive long-standing fallacies as much as Hope does.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

BeRational

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Re: 'Sin'
« Reply #108 on: April 09, 2016, 11:10:27 PM »
I've never known anybody to love his massive long-standing fallacies as much as Hope does.

Do you think he is not smart enough to understand?

Why would any sensible person continue to make the same mistake?

I see gullible people, everywhere!

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: 'Sin'
« Reply #109 on: April 09, 2016, 11:38:33 PM »
This of course is your constant assertion, just as the negative proof fallacy is your constant form of aberrant reasoning. It goes without saying that it is also yet another iteration of the aforementioned negative proof fallacy, without which it is becoming increasingly clear that you cannot even post. Twice today alone to my knowledge, for example. (The other instance being on this very thread less than five hours ago, viz., http://goo.gl/goW2Rn ).

You haven't been asked to provide a naturalistic methodology to evaluate these so-called claims of the supernatural; you have been asked to provide any methodology which is objective (that's to say, is shareable and can be investigated and employed by anyone) by which such claims can be scrutinised. That you have consistently failed to provide any such methodology speaks volumes, and lends itself to the entirely reasonable stance that no such methodology even exists.
Anything other than a naturalistic view of the universe stands in need of demonstration. You claim to believe in such a thing and claim that you are in possession of a methodology by which supernatural claims can be evaluated, therefore the burden of proof is squarely yours. You have to demonstrate this to be the case. It doesn't go through on the nod with a wave of the hand as you seem to expect; if you intend to be taken seriously (a dubious proposition at best, given your posting history), back up your claims.

But you don't, because you cannot.

You know this; I know this; we all know this. Absolutely nobody is in any way fooled by your constant waffling and hand-waving and the interminable prevarication, evasion and bloviating ... except, very possibly, you.

You bore on about there being more to life than the merely natural (i.e. natural broadly construed here as the world of matter-energy as revealed by physics), and so have been asked multiple times by any number of posters here over a long period of time (many months) to provide an appropriate methodology for the evaluation of these claims. Not a naturalistic methodology, as that's a straw man on your part, adding to your already formidable arsenal of logical fallacies; any methodology which is objective and capable of scrutinising these claims of the soi-disant supernatural and of evaluating their truth or falsity. You have utterly failed to provide any such thing. You recently claimed* that you have previously provided such a methodology somewhere else online and indeed in more than one place, but cannot provide so much as a link to these other places.

Therefore, after so many requests to provide such a methodology, so many ducks, dodges, dives and evasions of the request, claims that it exists elsewhere but a stonewall refusal to provide evidence of this claim, it is perfectly reasonable to conclude that no such methodology exists, that it has never been provided elsewhere as asserted by you, and that as well as being a homophobe, a hypocrite and a pompous braggart, you're no more than a plain old common (very common) or garden liar. The methodology you assert doesn't exist and it has never been provided elsewhere on other online forums.

After all, in saying this there's no evidence that I'm wrong, is there? Where's the evidence that I'm not right?

Remember how easy it is to refute this charge: a clear and thorough exposition of this supposed methodology written up here, or if that is too much work, a URL or URLs to where it has allegedly been posted elsewhere in
more than one place (as claimed by you)* would do. If those URLs are too long as-is, a URL tidier such as Tinyurl or Google URL Shortener would do the job beautifully. This is easy stuff.

The floor's all yours.
 
* Here: http://goo.gl/7raQfK
Shaker the best you are saying for materialism is that the universe just is..........just what you think it is at this point I don't know............but then a load of questions seem to follow that and it's all to do with being a human being............But hey, at the end of all this we find a group of people who have gone through all the rigmarole of self awareness, of creativity, of harnessing nature, of time, of beginnings and endings and yet after all that......opt to stick with ''the universe just is''.

Now I would just like to sit back and hear what you think the universe is and why it just is according to you guys.....................................but no.....even at this point you guys are so tight, according to Gordon you aren't prepared to make the case for anything.

What's going down Guys? Why haven't you got the balls to make the case for naturalism?

Étienne d'Angleterre

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Re: 'Sin'
« Reply #110 on: April 10, 2016, 07:34:35 AM »
Of course you have, becuase you haven't been able to demolish the evidence that you have been presented with - just neatly batted it away by claiming that, because it isn't naturalistic evidence it isn't evidence

Well let us review this situation shall we.

Firstly I hope you don't include Vlad in the group of people who have supplied a methodology for us.

http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=11809.375

Msg 399. 


After all the bluster the best he got to was he believes he has personally experienced God and therefore God is objective for him.  Further that, if I tried to find God I too could have an experience of God that would convince me of an objectively true God.

So what, all we would have then would be two people who held the subjective view that God was objective. This get's us not one inch down the road of demonstrating God to be objective. No amount of sincerely held subjective views get you to objectively true.


Secondly, please could you also show me where I have specifically asked for a naturalist methodology.

Thirdly, could you also show me where you have presented a non naturalistic methodology. In the past you have hinted at emotions and personal experience as methodologies or non natural aspects of life. You will need to show that these have a non naturalistic element. They certainly have a naturalistic element. Drink a bottle of Whisky and you will alter both your emotions and ability to recall events (necessary for personal experience). As dead people don't seem to show any emotions or learn from experience then I think we are justified in saying these aspects have at least some naturalistic element.  It's up to you show that they have a non naturalistic element.

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(even though life is more than just naturalistic)


Pure assertion.

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- and none of you have any evidence to support, let alone prove your rather narrow view of life. 

What is my rather narrow view of life?

This seems a bit rich coming from someone who thinks that people who don't share his sexuality are damaged or have a medical condition and that when they form loving relationships that these are somehow damaging to society.

Quote

I, for one, quite enjoy the accusations becaue it means that yet again you can't give an answer.


I have given you an answer. Your question is a text book example of the negative proof fallacy.





Shaker

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Re: 'Sin'
« Reply #111 on: April 10, 2016, 07:37:14 AM »
Bravo that chap *applause*
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Stranger

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Re: 'Sin'
« Reply #112 on: April 10, 2016, 07:43:39 AM »
Shaker the best you are saying for materialism is that the universe just is..........just what you think it is at this point I don't know............but then a load of questions seem to follow that and it's all to do with being a human being............But hey, at the end of all this we find a group of people who have gone through all the rigmarole of self awareness, of creativity, of harnessing nature, of time, of beginnings and endings and yet after all that......opt to stick with ''the universe just is''.

Now I would just like to sit back and hear what you think the universe is and why it just is according to you guys.....................................but no.....even at this point you guys are so tight, according to Gordon you aren't prepared to make the case for anything.

What's going down Guys? Why haven't you got the balls to make the case for naturalism?

Why should we want to?

What is wrong with not knowing? Why do you seem so frightened of not knowing?

I don't know why the universe is and I don't feel the need believe something, anything, rather than simply not know - why should I?

I would be very interested to hear that somebody has found a credible answer, and can offer evidence or reasoning to support their case, but none have done so.



"Not knowing is much more interesting than believing an answer which might be wrong." -- Richard Feynman
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Rhiannon

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Re: 'Sin'
« Reply #113 on: April 10, 2016, 08:00:23 AM »
Do you think he is not smart enough to understand?

Why would any sensible person continue to make the same mistake?

Because he relies on self delusion and lies to shore up his position?

Stranger

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Re: 'Sin'
« Reply #114 on: April 10, 2016, 08:03:17 AM »
...merely natural (i.e. natural broadly construed here as the world of matter-energy as revealed by physics)...

Off topic, I know, but please not "matter-energy"! I get what you mean, but there really is no such beast in physics.

Matter and Energy: A False Dichotomy
http://tinyurl.com/lnc3oz3
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Shaker

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Re: 'Sin'
« Reply #115 on: April 10, 2016, 08:08:54 AM »
Do you think he is not smart enough to understand?
I genuinely do not know.

Quote
Why would any sensible person continue to make the same mistake?
Why indeed. I wonder about that too.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

floo

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Re: 'Sin'
« Reply #116 on: April 10, 2016, 08:15:48 AM »
As I and others have said - a sizeable amount has been produced since I joined the board in June 2011. 
Did I say that you were trying to prove anything?  However, by arguing against something given in evidence, you are trying to prove that the evidence doesn't stand up/hold water.  If you really weren't trying to prove anything, you wouldn't be debating the issue.
By no means a non-sequitur.  Simply a result of some of us starting from starting point G, and others of us starting from starting point T.

No evidence, which could be substantiated has ever been produced to prove beyond any doubt that a deity exists. As I have said before, if god does exist it is playing a nasty game by not making it presence clear to all in a totally irrefutable way, if the penalty for unbelief is hell.  >:(

Sassy

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Re: 'Sin'
« Reply #117 on: April 10, 2016, 08:18:26 AM »
Oh Sass, I wasn't trying to score any points and you must know that.   What should I have done?  PMd you and then had four paragraphs in reply?  We all have to face some criticism on forums Sass, even from those who like us, it's the nature of the beast.

Whoever said, ''Head meets wall'', ''Wall meets head'' - was using three words instead of two, in each case.  What a waste  :D!  There used to be a smiley that conveyed the sentiment, wish we had it here.

No! I must not know it. What is more, I did not know that. May be, what you should have done is remembered that Leonard and I, have been posting together for a long time. We all have to face criticism but that was not criticism that was an accusation. Criticism would have reflected on what I wrote not questioned the reason I wrote it.

We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
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Shaker

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Re: 'Sin'
« Reply #118 on: April 10, 2016, 08:20:27 AM »
No! I must not know it. What is more, I did not know that. May be, what you should have done is remembered that Leonard and I, have been posting together for a long time. We all have to face criticism but that was not criticism that was an accusation.
An accusation such as, for example, that Stephen Taylor discriminates against Christians which you are yet to substantiate or retract and apologise for.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Sassy

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Re: 'Sin'
« Reply #119 on: April 10, 2016, 08:24:57 AM »
Of course I am - I don't hold any beliefs about 'Gods': it isn't rocket science, Vlad, or a game of 'Call My Bluff'.

So why are you saying that God doesn't exist? Oh, wait a minute, you are admitting that atheists have no faith and
that disbelief is not a belief rather a statement for you like " There is no God" rather than " I do not know if there is a God."
So requires nothing from you which can be changed whether you have an open mind or not. So atheists do not have an open mind and cannot be willing to admit they were wrong?


Gordon, What have you ever done to check if God exists?

That question is for all other atheists too...
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Étienne d'Angleterre

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Re: 'Sin'
« Reply #120 on: April 10, 2016, 08:32:03 AM »


Gordon, What have you ever done to check if God exists?

That question is for all other atheists too...

I will tell you my answer after you have apologised for the libellous statement you made about me.

Sassy

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Re: 'Sin'
« Reply #121 on: April 10, 2016, 08:33:14 AM »
What I don't understand is why some Christians make excuses for the 'sins' god is supposed to have perpetrated, according to the Bible? If humans had committed them they would be rightly condemned by The Court of Human Rights, and an effort made to bring them to justice.

Therein lies your reasoning problem again.

What is the difference between a judge passing a death sentence and God?

God is righteous without sin, the judge is not unless he knows Christ and God having been forgiven.

There has to be people who do certain jobs. God cannot sin he is righteous and carries out that which justice.

"Reap what you sow" at one time it was "an eye for an eye" and the Egyptians reaped what they sowed.
But now we are called to turn the other cheek. What is it that you cannot understand about justice.
Without the laws people could do as they did thousands of years ago. Kill anyone they liked and get away with it.

Floo, you have to get some understanding of the reality of the world and what people have to do.

When the hangman kill people sentenced to death, is he a murderer?
The method matters not, he is killing the person so does that make him a murderer or was the death justified?

You need to sort out in your mind and remember God is without sin. One time for the people of Israel and to save us all he had to punish those who made others suffer. The Egyptians did make the Israelites suffer.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Sassy

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Re: 'Sin'
« Reply #122 on: April 10, 2016, 08:41:16 AM »
Well let us review this situation shall we.

Firstly I hope you don't include Vlad in the group of people who have supplied a methodology for us.

http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=11809.375

Msg 399. 


After all the bluster the best he got to was he believes he has personally experienced God and therefore God is objective for him.  Further that, if I tried to find God I too could have an experience of God that would convince me of an objectively true God.

So what, all we would have then would be two people who held the subjective view that God was objective. This get's us not one inch down the road of demonstrating God to be objective. No amount of sincerely held subjective views get you to objectively true.


Secondly, please could you also show me where I have specifically asked for a naturalist methodology.

Thirdly, could you also show me where you have presented a non naturalistic methodology. In the past you have hinted at emotions and personal experience as methodologies or non natural aspects of life. You will need to show that these have a non naturalistic element. They certainly have a naturalistic element. Drink a bottle of Whisky and you will alter both your emotions and ability to recall events (necessary for personal experience). As dead people don't seem to show any emotions or learn from experience then I think we are justified in saying these aspects have at least some naturalistic element.  It's up to you show that they have a non naturalistic element.

Pure assertion.

What is my rather narrow view of life?

This seems a bit rich coming from someone who thinks that people who don't share his sexuality are damaged or have a medical condition and that when they form loving relationships that these are somehow damaging to society.

I have given you an answer. Your question is a text book example of the negative proof fallacy.

There is a lack of honesty and truth about this post.

Both Vlad and Hope and sought God and experienced God having done so.
What exactly have you done Stephen to find out if God is real?
If nothing the above all becomes useless. Why not tell everyone on this forum exactly what you have done to find God.
Why do the others not give their examples of searching for God. It would be good to know if replies come from being read on up on other atheists offerings or a real experience of the individuals writing.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Gordon

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Re: 'Sin'
« Reply #123 on: April 10, 2016, 08:42:50 AM »
So why are you saying that God doesn't exist?

I'm not saying that.

Quote
Oh, wait a minute, you are admitting that atheists have no faith and
that disbelief is not a belief rather a statement for you like " There is no God" rather than " I do not know if there is a God."

I'm not 'admitting' anything, and I haven't said 'there is no God', especially since the term 'God' seems like so much white noise.
 
Quote
Gordon, What have you ever done to check if God exists?
I have expended the same amount of effort that I devoted to my search for clockwork-powered jellyfish.


Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: 'Sin'
« Reply #124 on: April 10, 2016, 08:46:06 AM »



After all the bluster the best he got to was he believes he has personally experienced God and therefore God is objective for him.  Further that, if I tried to find God I too could have an experience of God that would convince me of an objectively true God.


I'm sorry that is grossly underrepresenting my input.
I have pointed out the shortfall between methodological materialism and ontological materialism...which antitheists have skated over or admitted to not know or worse say they don't know but we know it isn't God.....really fellers, how do you know that.

I have pointed to philosophical means of making a case for an ontology.

And I have countered the assumption that science, reason, philosophy and logic are naturalistic.

That is a pretty big CV compared to the fat sultans of axiomatic naturalism and their ''don't know but isn't God'' routine.