Author Topic: Miracles from Heaven  (Read 20603 times)

Stranger

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2016, 10:45:59 AM »
I have an obsession about all antitheist comedians.

Just for you...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r-e2NDSTuE

 :)
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2016, 10:48:10 AM »

Yes....

except that what is 'natural' needs to be expanded to include many more phenomena than what we today consider as natural. That's the point. 

This is where the evolution of science comes in.
No what you are doing is misunderstanding the concept of natural - you are equating 'we don't understand at present' to something that is beyond natural.

The reality is that the phenomenon is likely in due course to be understood by science and considered natural, but we currently lack sufficient knowledge.

Gordon

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2016, 10:51:07 AM »

Yes....

except that what is 'natural' needs to be expanded to include many more phenomena than what we today consider as natural. That's the point. 

No it isn't - what is 'natural' is defined by the methodology use to apprehend it, so that it will be identifiable as being natural in terms of physics, chemistry, biology etc. We don't just include stuff we'd like to be true unless there is a suitable method that can be used to examine it - so this doesn't include the likes of these 'spiritual laws' you mentioned earlier, which will remain as woo until you have said method at your disposal.

Quote
This is where the evolution of science comes in.
No it doesn't: you don't get to redefine science so as to include what you'd like to be true, and in any event science isn't static.

Maeght

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2016, 11:23:01 AM »

You are fixated on what you understand as the Scientific Method. No need to be dogmatic about it. Science can review the SM itself and expand its scope.  That is the evolution of Science.  You keep saying it is something else. No....it will not be something else. It will be a New Science.

Like everything else in life ......Science will also evolve and change...regardless of dogmatic and fixated people  trying to hold it back.

The scientific method has worked very well for a long time and has brought us so many new things and so much more understanding of our Universe that I don't think it a problem at all to be considered to be fixated about it. Of course there are areas where methods should be reviewed but the core Scientific method is what makes it science and I am quite happy to continue to say that your New Science could well not be science at all if it moves away from the core SM. To stick to the SM is not holding back science.

I have asked a couple of times for examples of what you actually mean by science evolving but you haven't given anything specific to discuss, only talked in general terms. Can you give a specific exampleof what you think scinece should do differently please.

Brownie

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2016, 01:18:02 PM »
Sririam, I don't think the film would appeal to me, a bit too sentimental, albeit based on a true story.  However, you said:

"I do not believe that we can think ourselves into health.  But I do believe that principles of mind and spirit exist that we have not even begun to scientifically map in the West, and that we should be doing so."

I agree with that.
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

SusanDoris

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #30 on: March 30, 2016, 01:18:57 PM »
Prof Davey #18

Well said. Some of the contributors to Beyond Beliefreally make me  grit my teeth in order to be able to listen to others! :) I agree that it is really sad that so much ignorance is still so widespread.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2016, 01:44:48 PM »
Science isn't highjacked by anyone
Beg to disagree self styled and self reverential Sciencemeisters like the Edge organisation have toyed with the idea of changing science notably in ways that would benefit their ontological beliefs.
Sean Carroll proposed the retirement of falsifiability from science and Dawkins, the retirement of essentialism.

Edge describes itself as made up of the ''most complex and sophisticated minds'' and the prescriptive title of it's latest pronouncement ''What to think of machines that think'' for lesser minds says it all.......

...........I'm thinking inspiration for future Bond villains here.





ProfessorDavey

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #32 on: March 30, 2016, 01:54:39 PM »
Beg to disagree self styled and self reverential Sciencemeisters like the Edge organisation have toyed with the idea of changing science notably in ways that would benefit their ontological beliefs.
Sean Carroll proposed the retirement of falsifiability from science and Dawkins, the retirement of essentialism.

Edge describes itself as made up of the ''most complex and sophisticated minds'' and the prescriptive title of it's latest pronouncement ''What to think of machines that think'' for lesser minds says it all.......

...........I'm thinking inspiration for future Bond villains here.
Load of rubbish.

Science is objective and the methodology is developed to specifically identify hypotheses and theories that aren't supported. Hence the need for reproducibility and the notion that in science theories are continually tested and retested and only remain valid while they stand up to that testing.

I am a professional scientist and until now I have never heard of the Edge organisation and looking at their web-site I am struggling to understand what on earth their relevance to the notion of scientific principles of investigation is.

As for Sean Carrol - sure anyone can propose anything, but that doesn't mean that scientific principles somehow must change at their beck and call - indeed not.

Science isn't affected by either the views of Sean Carrol or a web-site from some obscure foundation - science will continue to use its robust, tried and test, objective and rational approaches to uncover more about the universe and the world around us.

And I think you are failing to understand the difference between hard core science and the popular communication of that science to a wider public.

« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 02:01:48 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Sassy

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2016, 02:00:35 PM »
Some people will believe anything.

If, so, then why do you not believe the account in the film. Proof of what you wanted isn't it. People really healed?

Let us be honest.... the cost of Christ and healing being true is a cost you seriously believe you could not afford.
How would that cost to you pan out knowing it all to be real.


Some people won't believe anything because they are not honest enough to themselves or others to seek the truth or do not like it's cost.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2016, 02:01:53 PM »


I am a professional scientist and until now I have never heard of the Edge organisation
Great....an organisation made up of the worlds most influential thinkers and nobody seems to have heard of it........definitely one for Bond.

Sassy

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2016, 02:04:55 PM »
The thread emancipates the reality of mens hearts/love growing cold in seeking truth.
It shows clearly how this thread reveals that atheist have had their hearts set free  from seeking truth.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Leonard James

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2016, 02:05:19 PM »
If, so, then why do you not believe the account in the film. Proof of what you wanted isn't it. People really healed?


You swallowed it hook, line and sinker. They weren't healed ... they simply got better themselves. Medical science will one day discover why.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2016, 02:12:49 PM »
The thread emancipates the reality of mens hearts/love growing cold in seeking truth.
It shows clearly how this thread reveals that atheist have had their hearts set free  from seeking truth.
I spend large parts of my life seeking truth - that's why I am a scientist.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #38 on: March 30, 2016, 02:17:08 PM »
I spend large parts of my life seeking truth - that's why I am a scientist.
Are you sure that isn't just sanctimonious claptrap since science finds facts about matter/energy.

Brownie

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #39 on: March 30, 2016, 02:22:30 PM »
Sass, it doesn't hurt to be sceptical.  I'm sure you would be if you met someone who claimed a miraculous healing.  Non-believers accept that healings/curings do happen spontaneously sometimes and cannot be explained.  Maybe scientific research will be able to explain things like that in time, it doesn't stop them from being quite amazing.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #40 on: March 30, 2016, 02:30:01 PM »
Are you sure that isn't just sanctimonious claptrap since science finds facts about matter/energy.
Nothing sanctimonious about it.

I am proud that I have over the past 25 years or so been able to add in a very small manner to the huge scientific knowledge base so we know a tiny bit more than we would have done without my research. We are a tiny bit closer to understanding the truth about the world.

What have you done Vlad to enhance our knowledge, to take us closer to the truth - absolutely nothing whatsoever. Indeed you seem to so blinkered that your refuse even to be open to knowledge and understanding. Your aim seems to be to try to frustrate those who are striving to get us a touch closer to the truth, preferring to live in ignorance. Shame.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 02:32:08 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #41 on: March 30, 2016, 02:53:33 PM »
Nothing sanctimonious about it.

I am proud that I have over the past 25 years or so been able to add in a very small manner to the huge scientific knowledge base so we know a tiny bit more than we would have done without my research. We are a tiny bit closer to understanding the truth about the world.

What have you done Vlad to enhance our knowledge, to take us closer to the truth - absolutely nothing whatsoever. Indeed you seem to so blinkered that your refuse even to be open to knowledge and understanding. Your aim seems to be to try to frustrate those who are striving to get us a touch closer to the truth, preferring to live in ignorance. Shame.
Not so, I happened to work on novel fertilisers for the EC in the early eighties.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #42 on: March 30, 2016, 03:04:52 PM »
Not so, I happened to work on novel fertilisers for the EC in the early eighties.
Then you should know better than to carp away on the sidelines, trying to pretend that science isn't in the business of advancing our knowledge and of helping us to uncover the truth about the world.

Out of interest, in what capacity were you working on novel fertilisers - was it in a scientific research role or in some other capacity.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #43 on: March 30, 2016, 03:09:35 PM »
Then you should know better than to carp away on the sidelines, trying to pretend that science isn't in the business of advancing our knowledge and of helping us to uncover the truth about the world.

Out of interest, in what capacity were you working on novel fertilisers - was it in a scientific research role or in some other capacity.
Yes it was in a scientific research role although there was some manual work involved in maintaining experimental plots but that's agricultural science for you. I suppose most of your science has been ''dry''?

Stranger

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #44 on: March 30, 2016, 03:12:45 PM »
Beg to disagree self styled and self reverential Sciencemeisters like the Edge organisation have toyed with the idea of changing science notably in ways that would benefit their ontological beliefs.
Sean Carroll proposed the retirement of falsifiability from science and Dawkins, the retirement of essentialism.

So, Vlad's found a new website to play on! I'm interested in exactly what role you consider essentialism plays in science and exactly where you part company with your favourite atheist? Or was it just a case of "Dawkins said it, so it must be wrong"?

http://www.edge.org/response-detail/25366

Carroll on falsifiability is somewhat more nuanced than you give credit for too and, of course, the whole site is about ideas and discussion - how do you imagine it could hijack science....?
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #45 on: March 30, 2016, 03:16:17 PM »
Yes it was in a scientific research role although there was some manual work involved in maintaining experimental plots but that's agricultural science for you. I suppose most of your science has been ''dry''?
Depends what you class as 'dry'.

My research has largely been laboratory based - studying living cells and tissues, which required significant amounts of equipment/rig development for the experiments involved. For many years I used to regularly visit a local abattoir to pick up tissue that was used in the research. Nothing 'dry' about that.

Leonard James

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #46 on: March 30, 2016, 03:19:04 PM »
Sass, it doesn't hurt to be sceptical.  I'm sure you would be if you met someone who claimed a miraculous healing. 

I doubt that very much. Sass would be only too pleased for support in her confirmation bias.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #47 on: March 30, 2016, 03:20:30 PM »
Depends what you class as 'dry'.

My research has largely been laboratory based - studying living cells and tissues, which required significant amounts of equipment/rig development for the experiments involved. For many years I used to regularly visit a local abattoir to pick up tissue that was used in the research. Nothing 'dry' about that.
I have therefore absolutely no doubt of your valuable contribution to scientific knowledge and may I take this opportunity to thank you personally for the work you do on behalf of all us.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #48 on: March 30, 2016, 03:27:57 PM »
I have therefore absolutely no doubt of your valuable contribution to scientific knowledge and may I take this opportunity to thank you personally for the work you do on behalf of all us.
Why are my irony antenna going crazy :-\

However I will take your comment at face value and thank you for your appreciation of the research I have conducted over the past quarter of a century.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #49 on: March 30, 2016, 03:32:57 PM »
So, Vlad's found a new website to play on! I'm interested in exactly what role you consider essentialism plays in science and exactly where you part company with your favourite atheist? Or was it just a case of "Dawkins said it, so it must be wrong"?

http://www.edge.org/response-detail/25366

Carroll on falsifiability is somewhat more nuanced than you give credit for too and, of course, the whole site is about ideas and discussion - how do you imagine it could hijack science....?
Sorry, Are you suggesting that essentialism might have no part in science because it seems to you I think it should be in science while at the same time Dawkins writes about retiring it from science. That would just be plain humbug on your part. Science needs things categorised and classified for it to be reductionist and atomistic about. For the reductionist in chief to be suggesting the retiral of essentialism is just a fucking pisstake.
......As is Carroll's proposal to retire falsification from science. The Edge's request from the complex and sophisticated here was an invitation to be shockingly controversial! Nuanced my arse.