Miracles from Heaven

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Why are my irony antenna going crazy

That's right....belittle something offered sincerely.

[Stranger]

Sorry, Are you suggesting that essentialism might have no part in science because it seems to you I think it should be in science while at the same time Dawkins writes about retiring it from science.

I suggest reading what he actually says...

[ProfessorDavey]

That's right....belittle something offered sincerely.

Which is why I then made it clear that I was taking it at face value.

But hey nice selective quoting to try to portray the exact opposite to that which is clear from the whole post. Why did you chose to ignore the following:

'However I will take your comment at face value and thank you for your appreciation of the research I have conducted over the past quarter of a century.'

Didn't that bit fit with your agenda Vlad.

[ProfessorDavey]

Sorry, Are you suggesting that essentialism might have no part in science because it seems to you I think it should be in science while at the same time Dawkins writes about retiring it from science. That would just be plain humbug on your part. Science needs things categorised and classified for it to be reductionist and atomistic about. For the reductionist in chief to be suggesting the retiral of essentialism is just a fucking pisstake.
......As is Carroll's proposal to retire falsification from science. The Edge's request from the complex and sophisticated here was an invitation to be shockingly controversial! Nuanced my arse.

Carroll and The Edge (isn't he ink U2) are a sideshow, and a very, very minor one at that. The main event is the scientific method and that rises above individual subjective opinions and 'pop-science'.

If Carroll comes up with a new approach that is demonstrably more effective (or perhaps quicker) at developing our knowledge base in an objective, rational, validated and reproducible manner then that will be adopted by the scientific community - but the method is king and he (or others) would have to prove it works and is preferable. His opinion is irrelevant - his data and evidence might be but that is a different matter.

[Sriram]

No what you are doing is misunderstanding the concept of natural - you are equating 'we don't understand at present' to something that is beyond natural.

The reality is that the phenomenon is likely in due course to be understood by science and considered natural, but we currently lack sufficient knowledge.

Eh?!

I am saying the opposite. I am saying that everything is natural......even things that we don't understand today and therefore categorize as 'supernatural'.   So...as time goes by...our concept of 'natural' would have to expand to include many more things then  it  does now.

[Sriram]

The scientific method has worked very well for a long time and has brought us so many new things and so much more understanding of our Universe that I don't think it a problem at all to be considered to be fixated about it. Of course there are areas where methods should be reviewed but the core Scientific method is what makes it science and I am quite happy to continue to say that your New Science could well not be science at all if it moves away from the core SM. To stick to the SM is not holding back science.

I have asked a couple of times for examples of what you actually mean by science evolving but you haven't given anything specific to discuss, only talked in general terms. Can you give a specific exampleof what you think scinece should do differently please.

The Scientific Method has been there a long time....so has the steam locomotive.  This is what I meant by fixated.

Nothing is sacrosanct or permanent...... everything can be reviewed and expanded......even scientific methodologies.   

[Sriram]

Sririam, I don't think the film would appeal to me, a bit too sentimental, albeit based on a true story.  However, you said:

"I do not believe that we can think ourselves into health.  But I do believe that principles of mind and spirit exist that we have not even begun to scientifically map in the West, and that we should be doing so."

I agree with that.

Brownie,

The OP is not about a film. I don't know why everyone went off at a tangent about the film (they just found it convenient as always, I guess).

The article is about the real life case where a child was spontaneously healed.  The author also talks of several other similar cases that she has come across.

The statement you quoted is not mine but the author's.  I also agree with it.

[Maeght]

The Scientific Method has been there a long time....so has the steam locomotive.  This is what I meant by fixated.

Nothing is sacrosanct or permanent...... everything can be reviewed and expanded......even scientific methodologies.

So give me an actual example of how it could be expanded, and still remian science, as I have asked for twice now, and we can discuss it.

[ProfessorDavey]

Eh?!

I am saying the opposite. I am saying that everything is natural......even things that we don't understand today and therefore categorize as 'supernatural'.   So...as time goes by...our concept of 'natural' would have to expand to include many more things then  it  does now.

Something we don't understand but it natural isn't categorised as 'supernatural' - it is simply natural but currently not understood. Supernatural implies that it isn't natural, it stands outside of that which is natural.

Once we didn't understand that natural phenomenon of thunder - it was still a natural phenomenon, but one that we didn't understand. Now we do understand it. It isn't and never was supernatural.

So we don't expand our concept of natural as we understand more, we simply understand more about natural phenomena.

[ProfessorDavey]

The Scientific Method has been there a long time....so has the steam locomotive.  This is what I meant by fixated.

Nothing is sacrosanct or permanent...... everything can be reviewed and expanded......even scientific methodologies.

They can and are constantly refined - but the fundamental principles - objectivity, reproducibility, rigorous and constant testing of hypotheses and theories against the evidence remains constant.

The steam engine was superseded because we invented something better at doing the same job. We haven't seen anything that comes close to being better at providing an understanding of the universe than the scientific method, and of course both the steam engine and the technology that superseded it only exist because of science. Without that basic scientific understanding there would be no steam engine, nor diesel engine or electric high speed train - or maglift etc etc.

[Brownie]

'Miracles from Heaven' is a film Sririam, based on a child's illness.  However the article is not entirely about the film and is quite interesting.

[Sriram]

'Miracles from Heaven' is a film Sririam, based on a child's illness.  However the article is not entirely about the film and is quite interesting.

Yes...I know the title is from the film....but the article is about the real case of healing and several other cases.....and about miracles being consistent with mental and spiritual laws.   That is what this thread is about......!

[Sriram]

Something we don't understand but it natural isn't categorised as 'supernatural' - it is simply natural but currently not understood. Supernatural implies that it isn't natural, it stands outside of that which is natural.

Once we didn't understand that natural phenomenon of thunder - it was still a natural phenomenon, but one that we didn't understand. Now we do understand it. It isn't and never was supernatural.

So we don't expand our concept of natural as we understand more, we simply understand more about natural phenomena.

Eh again! 

How do you decide what 'stands outside natural' but we don't understand ....and what is 'natural'  but we don't understand'?   

Just because we use words like God, ghost and miracle....it is taken as 'standing outside the natural' is it? LOL!

That is precisely the point the author is making. Check out the OP.

[Sriram]

So give me an actual example of how it could be expanded, and still remian science, as I have asked for twice now, and we can discuss it.

I have already told you that it requires a certain type of integrative mind (Zoom -Out)....!   

[Brownie]

Yes...I know the title is from the film....but the article is about the real case of healing and several other cases.....and about miracles being consistent with mental and spiritual laws.   That is what this thread is about......!

I know that, I read it all twice.  Sorry if I appear to think the film is emphasised.  However I agree with you that spontaneous, unexplained healing does happen.

[Stranger]

So give me an actual example of how it could be expanded, and still remian science, as I have asked for twice now, and we can discuss it.

I have already told you that it requires a certain type of integrative mind (Zoom -Out)....!

  That's not an example; it's meaningless waffle.

[ProfessorDavey]

However I agree with you that spontaneous, unexplained healing does happen.

Yup - an aspect of the normal healing process. Cut yourself and guess what happens - spontaneous healing. Break a bone and provided you restrict movement what happens - in most cases spontaneous healing.

We still don't fully understand why there is spontaneous healing in certain cases and not in others (but there is lots of research going on into this), but spontaneous healing is happening all around us, all the time. Actually there is almost certainly much more than we recognise because we often only develop symptoms or more significant medical conditions under situations where the spontaneous healing isn't successful.

Just because we don't fully understand it, doesn't mean that it is somehow supernatural or miraculous. Actually in many cases the issue isn't a lack of understanding of the healing process itself, but a lack of understand why in some people under some circumstances spontaneous healing is successful and for others under different circumstances it isn't. This is likely down to subtle differences in genetic makeup and epigenetics, plus subtle differences in environmental conditions that become conducive or not to the physiological healing process.

[Brownie]

I agree with all of your post Prof.  The body and the mind are marvellous.  There certainly should be more research into spontaneous healing.

I've known a couple of cases where spontaneous - and unexpected - healing occurred.  One was a man who was paralysed - paraplegic and in a wheelchair for several years - who walked against all odds.  Nothing could be verified scientifically because he never received a definitive diagnosis though he was quite genuine, that was never in doubt.  It was certainly a miracle to him.  The other one was a bit different, more a mental health problem.  Still a wonderful healing and it had looked as though nothing would help.

[Udayana]

Yes...I know the title is from the film....but the article is about the real case of healing and several other cases.....and about miracles being consistent with mental and spiritual laws.   That is what this thread is about......!

So .. how, using your integrated zoomed-out mind, do you propose to go about finding which laws lead to spontaneous remission?

[Maeght]

I have already told you that it requires a certain type of integrative mind (Zoom -Out)....!

That is not an actual example. How, in practice, would this New Science approach the investigation of an observed phenomena in a different way to the current one?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

When I went to see “Miracles from Heaven,” I saw more laughter, crying and applause than I’ve ever seen in a movie theater. Clearly, this new movie — the real-life story of a young girl, suffering from an incurable illness, who was inexplicably healed after a nearly fatal accident — touches a chord, at least in the theater in Boston where I saw it.

No doubt, and as indeed do many other films on other subjects entirely.

To doctors, events like the story that this girl’s mother (played in the film by Jennifer Garner) recounted in her memoir are impossible to explain. Scientists call them “spontaneous remission” or “placebo responses.”

"To doctors"? What, all doctors everywhere or only those involved in the case? Let's assume to be charitable the former though - yes, just as back in the day no-one knew why milkmaids didn't contract typhus so today there are sometimes clinical outcomes without medical explanations, or at least without complete medical explanations. As medicine does not claim omniscience, it would be remarkable if it were otherwise.   

I do not believe that we can think ourselves into health.

That's debatable - there are studies linking optimistic personalities with better clinical outcomes than pessimistic ones, with doctors with good bedside manners achieving better outcomes for their patients than do doctors with poor bedside manners etc.

But I do believe that principles of mind and spirit exist that we have not even begun to scientifically map in the West, and that we should be doing so.

Oh dear. You cannot "map spirit" without first defining and then demonstrating its existence at all. 

I have listened to more than 100 of these remarkably cured individuals, despite the fact that in medical school, I was taught that reports of spontaneous remission are rare, “anecdotes” and “flukes”...

As a proportion of the total number of cures that are well understood, what makes him think that his 100 cases are not rare?

...from which nothing can be learned.

Almost certainly untrue. Unexplained medical phenomena are a rich source of investigation for medical researchers. If someone suddenly recovers from, say, a previously incurable cancer why on earth wouldn't people want to investigate that to find out whether the answer could have wider applications? In the cases of both HIV/AIDS and Ebola for example people who were exposed but did not fall ill were a fertile field of discovery to find out why that was the case in the hope of acceleration the production of vaccines for the wider population

That assumption appears to be wrong.

It would be if anyone said it. They don't.

In my studies of more than 100 people with medical evidence for recovery from incurable illness, the similarity in their paths suggests to me identifiable mental and spiritual principles associated with their recoveries.

Leaving aside the "spiritual", if he thinks that then use the tools of science to find out what those "principles" might be.   

I disagree with one common viewpoint that the movie espouses. At the very beginning, it defines a “miracle” as a contradiction of natural law.

Well that's something I suppose

I believe that miracles only contradict what we know of nature at this point in time. Modern physics is, for example, way ahead of traditional science, and its implications have not been fully incorporated into its perspectives and methods yet. So I believe that miracles actually are consistent with mental and spiritual laws that we are only beginning to study.

Sort of - see above.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

They can and are constantly refined - but the fundamental principles - objectivity, reproducibility, rigorous and constant testing of hypotheses and theories against the evidence remains constant.

The steam engine was superseded because we invented something better at doing the same job. We haven't seen anything that comes close to being better at providing an understanding of the universe than the scientific method

....or as we should say nothing is better at describing the model of the universe that science creates than science.......and read like that it all becomes less spectacular ontologically and philosophically duller....but truer.

[ekim]

  However I agree with you that spontaneous, unexplained healing does happen.

I think it might be helpful to define what people mean by 'spontaneous'.  Healing which takes place as a result of thousands of years of evolution can hardly be called spontaneous.  Do we class a spontaneous miscarriage as a miracle?  Is it a miracle that a crab can regenerate a lost claw but a human cannot regenerate a lost limb?  I believe that there is a condition called conversion disorder where the individual presents with a condition e.g. paralysis, but there is no associated organic cause but there are likely associated psychological influences. If the mental state is improved sufficiently perhaps the paralysis has a 'miraculous' recovery.  Perhaps there would be more miracles if there was research into the effect of the state of mind on medical conditions e.g. if the mind is at ease there is less interference with the bodies natural instinct to heal itself.

[Stranger]

....or as we should say nothing is better at describing the model of the universe that science creates than science.......and read like that it all becomes less spectacular ontologically and philosophically duller....but truer.

Glossing over inter-subjectively testable (I know how you love jargon)...

 

[Sriram]

That is not an actual example. How, in practice, would this New Science approach the investigation of an observed phenomena in a different way to the current one?

I have given examples of areas many times before...... NDE's, Biofield, medical miracles, ghost sightings, ESP's.....etc.

How they will approach these phenomena is what needs to be decided by the scientific community. I cannot provide you with a methodology on a platter. 

The problem is that the scientific community is fixated on the current methodology  using which it again and again 'decides' that there is nothing to investigate.  According to them most of it is just imaginary, some of it is hallucination or psychological, much of it is wishful thinking.  That's it! 

Nice investigation!!

It is a circular reasoning that concludes what it assumes to begin with.

And everyone is very smug about how silly these 'believers' are and how effectively science demolishes their nonsense beliefs. LOL!

The problem is that the methodology itself could be responsible for the 'no result'.  Lot depends on the base assumptions  and premises.  You start off with the assumption that only ‘natural’ phenomena can exist and that natural phenomena will necessarily follow known laws of nature and that all natural phenomena should therefore be sensed in some way and detected by our instruments.  This is fine for known phenomena.

But suppose there are phenomena that are also natural but  do not follow known laws of physics, they cannot be sensed or detected by our instruments.....but they have a marked influence on our health and on our mental states....then how do we presently identify or detect or measure such phenomena? 

Hitherto due to religious influences, we might have called any phenomena that do not fall within known laws...as ‘supernatural’.  There is no reason to continue with this categorization. The word ‘natural....depends on how you define it.

It can be a very broad spectrum out of which what we know is only a very tiny subset.  What we have been calling supernatural or miraculous  are just outside the subset that we know....but are still part of the natural spectrum.

This is what the OP article also talks of.

To understand the concept of the natural spectrum one needs an integrative mind that can view diverse things as parts of a whole.  Only people with this philosophical view will be able to initiate changes to develop a New Science.