Miracles from Heaven

[BeRational]

Sriram,

How do you propose to detect when there is a real effect and not just a mistake?

Or do you just believe everything as you have no way to test any claim?

[SweetPea]

Hi Sriram

Do you remember Anita Moorjani's story? She had only hours to live, suffering from lymphatic cancer, and completely recovered after a NDE. This is one of the most amazing 'miracles' I think that I have encountered.

[Brownie]

I'd never heard of her and looked her up.  Here is something from the Wiki article (there is plenty of stuff other than Wiki about her):

"She asserts that her cancer was caused by her emotional state, and preaches the message that a person's physical health is affected by their emotional well being."

I certainly believe emotional well being has a great influence on health.  Not sure about the rest of it and never feel comfortable with people who go on to have a stellar career on the back of their health experience.

[floo]

Like Brownie, I have never heard of the woman. She appears to be making a very good living out of her tale.

[Maeght]

I have given examples of areas many times before...... NDE's, Biofield, medical miracles, ghost sightings, ESP's.....etc.

How they will approach these phenomena is what needs to be decided by the scientific community. I cannot provide you with a methodology on a platter. 

Right so in summary you state that we shouldn't be fixated with the scientific method and that there needs to be a New Science, yet when asked how this would differ from the current application of the SM you can't answer.

You have talked about NDEs etc before and not been happy when it has been pointed out that the current SM doesn't provide support for them, hence your wish that science moves away from the SM but you cannot suggest to what, other than to something which accepts the things you believe in.

If you could propose a better methodology than the current one it might be more worthy of taking notice but in the absence of that it is no more thanspecial pleading really.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

But suppose there are phenomena that are also natural but  do not follow known laws of physics, they cannot be sensed or detected by our instruments.....but they have a marked influence on our health and on our mental states....then how do we presently identify or detect or measure such phenomena?

That's cheating: you pulled a switcheroo from the conditional ("suppose") to the unconditional ("presently identify").

You can suppose anything you like. You cannot though criticise science for failing to investigate those suppositions until and unless you can demonstrate that they exist at all. This isn't a problem for the methods of science - they work remarkably well insofar as there are phenomena for them to investigate - but it is a problem for proponents of these suppositions because, absent the methods of science to investigate them, what method would they propose instead to distinguish their claims from nonsense?

[Brownie]

Like Brownie, I have never heard of the woman. She appears to be making a very good living out of her tale.

That's what I feel uneasy with, floo.  Not that I object to anyone making money, maybe we all would in her circumstances.  So I am fence sitting  .  She's not the only one, there was an Irish chap some years ago, very much celebrated on the forums we frequented, who 'died' from a jellyfish sting and came back to tell the world about his NDE.  This lady is different though, she was obviously very seriously ill, at the stage of no hope.  So - who knows?  What she says about emotional well being is relevant to us all (by that standard, I should have been dead and buried donkeys' years ago  , makes me feel I should give myself a good shake and embrace life while I still can).

[Udayana]

Hi Sriram

Do you remember Anita Moorjani's story? She had only hours to live, suffering from lymphatic cancer, and completely recovered after a NDE. This is one of the most amazing 'miracles' I think that I have encountered.

http://www.anitamoorjani.com/about-anita/near-death-experience-description/

SweetPea,

This is indeed a very interesting account. I am sure she is doing her best to help people feel better and have hope. What I fail to see, though, is how such cases can be investigated and information obtained to treat cancer in other patients.

Are we to take it that everyone has this choice when near death? Maybe everyone that dies has finally decided that it really is their time to go - so we should stop worrying about it? Should we just stop bothering to investigate causes and possible cures for illness and concentrate on establishing contact with our dead relatives? What if people need treatment to be available so that they do have the choice to come back open to them?

I think our efforts are best spent on trying to understand those things that are at least within our grasp, that we can use  to improve our lives day to day. Finding ways to improve our well-being, but leaving "miracles" as miraculous until Sriram discovers a way to understand them ( or someone anyway )

[torridon]

The problem is that the methodology itself could be responsible for the 'no result'.  Lot depends on the base assumptions  and premises.  You start off with the assumption that only ‘natural’ phenomena can exist and that natural phenomena will necessarily follow known laws of nature and that all natural phenomena should therefore be sensed in some way and detected by our instruments.  This is fine for known phenomena.

Science operates on an implicit assumption of naturalism; there would be no point in trying to investigate something that was by definition unamenable to investigation, or incomprehensible.

You have yet to suggest any practical ways for scientific method to evolve in line with your zoom-out notion. You seem to be instead contenting yourself with slightly snide remarks about the people doing science, for being narrow minded, in effect; but science is a process, a bunch of methods, methods that have proven form in cutting through the fields of human biases to get closer to an objective understanding of how things work; if you can suggest new methods or improved methods then the floor is yours.

[floo]

That's what I feel uneasy with, floo.  Not that I object to anyone making money, maybe we all would in her circumstances.  So I am fence sitting  .  She's not the only one, there was an Irish chap some years ago, very much celebrated on the forums we frequented, who 'died' from a jellyfish sting and came back to tell the world about his NDE.  This lady is different though, she was obviously very seriously ill, at the stage of no hope.  So - who knows?  What she says about emotional well being is relevant to us all (by that standard, I should have been dead and buried donkeys' years ago  , makes me feel I should give myself a good shake and embrace life while I still can).

If her story genuinely checks out, I am sure there is natural explanation and nothing supernatural about her recovery.

[Brownie]

No doubt but it is still wonderful.  Her dream whilst in a coma is probably what has convinced her.  I'm so glad I've never had one of those, knowing my luck, if I did it would be a nightmare.  Or a daymare.

[SweetPea]

http://www.anitamoorjani.com/about-anita/near-death-experience-description/

SweetPea,

This is indeed a very interesting account. I am sure she is doing her best to help people feel better and have hope. What I fail to see, though, is how such cases can be investigated and information obtained to treat cancer in other patients.

Are we to take it that everyone has this choice when near death? Maybe everyone that dies has finally decided that it really is their time to go - so we should stop worrying about it? Should we just stop bothering to investigate causes and possible cures for illness and concentrate on establishing contact with our dead relatives? What if people need treatment to be available so that they do have the choice to come back open to them?

I think our efforts are best spent on trying to understand those things that are at least within our grasp, that we can use  to improve our lives day to day. Finding ways to improve our well-being, but leaving "miracles" as miraculous until Sriram discovers a way to understand them ( or someone anyway )

Udayana, I entirely agree. I was just mentioning an event that appeared a miracle in terms of the way that we think of miracles.

[floo]

My husband's experience whilst in a coma, convinced him beyond all doubt no god or afterlife exists.

[SweetPea]

Brownie, it certainly is an interesting case. Anita has spent many years lecturing and helping people since her experience. You could say, God works in mysterious ways. But it's just not for us to understand.

[Brownie]

My husband's experience whilst in a coma, convinced him beyond all doubt no god or afterlife exists.

Yes I remember you saying that.  He has no memory of his coma, he was just in a deep, dreamless sleep.  I had the same experience whilst in a coma, or rather lack of experience.  Just woke up in hospital wondering why I was there.  It didn't convince me of anything, seemed quite natural really.  Not everyone who is unconscious has so-called near death experiences, in fact most don't.

[Sriram]

Hi Sriram

Do you remember Anita Moorjani's story? She had only hours to live, suffering from lymphatic cancer, and completely recovered after a NDE. This is one of the most amazing 'miracles' I think that I have encountered.

Yes...SweetPea. I know of Anita.  Like the millions of other people who have had NDE's, her account is also remarkable.

I would expect all the others to run it down...one way or the other. In this case its her fame and fortune post NDE.  Otherwise they would have found some other reason.

Everyone demands evidence. But when its staring them in the face....they will put out their tongues.  LOL!!

Never fails! 

PS: When Floo doesn't trust her own unusual healing experience...why would she trust others?!! This is why I say that its a mindset...a programming. Nothing will change it. 

[Maeght]

 

[Sriram]

Science operates on an implicit assumption of naturalism; there would be no point in trying to investigate something that was by definition unamenable to investigation, or incomprehensible.

You have yet to suggest any practical ways for scientific method to evolve in line with your zoom-out notion. You seem to be instead contenting yourself with slightly snide remarks about the people doing science, for being narrow minded, in effect; but science is a process, a bunch of methods, methods that have proven form in cutting through the fields of human biases to get closer to an objective understanding of how things work; if you can suggest new methods or improved methods then the floor is yours.

Yes...and its this implicit assumption of naturalism that I am talking about. What is 'natural'?

[SweetPea]

Yes...SweetPea. I know of Anita.  Like the millions of other people who have had NDE's, her account is also remarkable.

I would expect all the others to run it down...one way or the other. In this case its her fame and fortune post NDE.  Otherwise they would have found some other reason.

Everyone demands evidence. But when its staring them in the face....they will put out their tongues.  LOL!!

Never fails! 

It is extraordinary...... it really is. As Pim van Lommel says, sometimes it is just wilful ignorance.

[Shaker]

Yes...and its this implicit assumption of naturalism that I am talking about. What is 'natural'?

Usually taken to mean something along the lines of "Consisting of matter-energy as construed by contemporary physics."

[Shaker]

It is extraordinary...... it really is. As Pim van Lommel says, sometimes it is just wilful ignorance.

I suggest you read - very carefully and attentively - the section labelled 'Reception' on van Lommel's Wikipedia page and the links therein and have another think about wilful ignorance.

[Aruntraveller]

YOu will have to pardon me for being extremely cynical here.

The obvious question is why her?

I watched a very close colleague of mine, who had a strong Christian faith, who was one of those people that shone life (if you understand my meaning) die a slow painful death from Bowel cancer - diagnosed once, treated, came back a year and a half later and finished her off.

If ever a person had the inner resolve to beat/reverse the symptoms it was her. Yet she didn't - like millions of others cancer got her. Because that is what cancer does in many, many cases.

Even if, and it is a whopping humungous if, she did recover spontaneously it is morally wrong to tout this sort of thing as life affirming, or worse as a way of beating cancer. Cancer is relentless - our best way of tackling it at the moment is to progress the work currently being done which involves identifying specific cancers in individuals and treatments such as immunotherapy.

I know Sririam will dismiss me as some kind of pourer of scorn - but I'm really not. I'd love it to be true.

But reality check - I really don't think it is.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

Yes...SweetPea. I know of Anita.  Like the millions of other people who have had NDE's, her account is also remarkable.

I would expect all the others to run it down...one way or the other. In this case its her fame and fortune post NDE.  Otherwise they would have found some other reason.

No-one "runs down" the experience - no doubt all sorts of unusual phenomena occur when the body is subject to duress sometimes associated with near death, asphyxiation prior to drowning for example. What is run down though is the causal claims sometimes make for these experiences, eg "that'll be god then", "that'll be the entrance lobby to Heaven then" etc.   

Everyone demands evidence. But when its staring them in the face....they will put out their tongues.  LOL!!

Evidence for what though?

Never fails! 

Rightly so when some claim to have evidence for an explanation when the evidence doesn't support that conclusion at all. 

PS: When Floo doesn't trust her own unusual healing experience...why would she trust others?!! This is why I say that its a mindset...a programming. Nothing will change it. 

What do you mean that she doesn't "trust" it? She trusts that it happened I think, but not that its happening demonstrates a particular cause.

What's wrong with that? 

[SweetPea]

I suggest you read - very carefully and attentively - the section labelled 'Reception' on van Lommel's Wikipedia page and the links therein and have another think about wilful ignorance.

Of course Wiki will say what it says. It is so biased it is hardly worth bothering with.

For example: where are the comments, on the section labelled 'Reception', from Sam Parnia or Penny Satori etc?

[wigginhall]

Like Trent, I have had a number of friends (of different faiths, and none), die of cancer and other illnesses.  Currently, some of my friends are seriously ill with various conditions, including dementia, motor neurone, and cancer. 

I am in the dying generation.   So am I supposed to run around getting excited about possible miracles?   I don't feel like doing that.   I will be with my friends, until they die, that is the best way for me to deal with it.  I don't want false comfort.