Author Topic: Miracles from Heaven  (Read 20571 times)

Sriram

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #125 on: April 01, 2016, 05:19:47 PM »


See what I mean?!!!  :D  Never fails!

Stranger

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #126 on: April 01, 2016, 06:19:46 PM »
Take the case of NDE's.  How does the issue of comprehension change anything?  Currently, people assume that all the NDE experience is merely brain related and that the person is not actually dead....and so there is no need to go for the after-life idea.

Do have any reason to think otherwise (apart from obvious wishful thinking)? There is a large body of evidence that mind is a function of the brain and bugger all for anything else being involved.

However, if you have new information, bring it on.

Why is this conclusion arrived at?  Simply because the assumption is what leads to the conclusion. No one has investigated the possibility of  after-life at all.

How do you propose we do that? Do you have an hypothesis that is amenable to tests that would help us decide if it is actually the case or if it's just a story?

If you have such an hypothesis, bring it on.

They have only investigated the brain related theory.....and concluded that it is only a brain related experience.   As circular as that.

What else do you think should be investigated and how? Again we need a testable hypothesis.

If you have such an hypothesis, bring it on.

Now suppose scientists assume that an NDE is actually an after-life experience, would they be checking out the brain MRI's? No. They would be racking their brains about how to possibly investigate the after-life. They would eventually have to realize that instead of treating the phenomenon  as a 'supernatural' experience....they could think of it as a very natural experience except that it is at a different end of the natural spectrum.

And distinguish it from a baseless story, how?

If you have a testable hypothesis, bring it on.

This is how new ideas will be born, news ways of looking at the world....and new methodologies and new methods will evolve.  Its not about me or someone handing out methodologies on a platter.

So, you don't have the first inkling of a clue of how all this might be tested, you just wish science would take your storytelling seriously. You haven't even pointed to a problem that needs solving. I mean, it's not exactly amazing that people close to death have odd experiences. People have odd experiences when they take certain drugs - perhaps that's a glimpse of the brainwaves from Andromeda? How about we investigate that instead?

This is what I mean by science evolving and developing new methodologies and systems to investigate  subtler and more intricate areas.

Its no use saying...we have checked all the NDE stuff with our tried and trusted methods and they don't show any results ...therefore sorry...these phenomena are just peoples imagination, they cannot be real!!   That is rubbish way of trying to gain knowledge of the world.

Same goes for medical 'miracles', ESP's and many other phenomena.

The assumptions and premises that we start of with make all the difference in the direction the research takes.

So, why should I take any of this any more seriously than brainwaves from our purple friends in Andromeda...?

You haven't given a single reason.
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ippy

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #127 on: April 01, 2016, 07:12:48 PM »
ippy,

If you can manage to phrase an apology to me that doesn't include a sly dig at NS, I'll accept it.

Perhaps if you could manage to leave other posters to reply or comment on their own posts, I think I could just about accept that.

I didn't consider that comment sly, I thought that comment was pretty straight forward I certainly wasn't trying to be subtle, I just said what I meant.

Another thing, does this post of yours mean that I now have to consult you before I post anything?

Perhaps you could find yourself a job at at the Foreign Office?

The Kindest of regards, ippy.

Brownie

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #128 on: April 01, 2016, 11:24:43 PM »
Attention: FLOO you posted on this thread about your husband not having a NDE whilst comatosed;  I too said that I hadn't had one.

I've been reading accounts of NDEs this evening and they all seemed to happen when someone was resuscitated, after their heart had stopped.  So that explains why someone unconscious but still breathing would not, or not necessarily, have a NDE.
The 'experiencers', as they are called, invariably had a pleasant, comforting experience and when recovered, have no fear of death.

Very interesting.  I'm tired tonight (early for me), but will read a bit more about them before going up the wooden hill.

Carl Jung's experience - fascinating: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/notable/carl-jung.html
« Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 11:30:09 PM by Brownie »
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torridon

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #129 on: April 02, 2016, 07:45:40 AM »

See what I mean?!!!  :D  Never fails!

Translation :  you're right, I can't think how to test such ideas either, but I think I will hide that behind my facade of taking cheap shots at scientists for their failure instead.

 ;)

Sriram

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #130 on: April 02, 2016, 08:24:55 AM »
Translation :  you're right, I can't think how to test such ideas either, but I think I will hide that behind my facade of taking cheap shots at scientists for their failure instead.

 ;)

No...I never claimed that I know how to test these phenomena. I told you I cannot provide it on a platter.

But I certainly do know that holding on to old  methodologies and using some standard methods to test  exotic phenomena is rubbish. That is for sure.

I also know that beginning the process by assuming that the experiences of millions of people are imaginary/hallucinatory and their explanations as 'wooly thinking'..... is NOT the way to develop suitable methodology to test such phenomena.

People should begin by making positive assumptions of the new and exotic experiences instead of continuing to wallow in what they already know (fear to venture into new territory).  This is the way forward and the only way by which new ideas will surface and new methods will develop.

Stranger

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #131 on: April 02, 2016, 10:11:37 AM »
No...I never claimed that I know how to test these phenomena. I told you I cannot provide it on a platter.

So, you haven't the first clue how to do it but you really, really want science to take your superstitions seriously. Even though you've provided no reason to take your unevidenced stories any more seriously than any other baseless story.

People should begin by making positive assumptions of the new and exotic experiences instead of continuing to wallow in what they already know (fear to venture into new territory).

Considering how much science has advanced and all the radically new and counter-intuitive ideas that have been adopted, this statement is comical in its ignorance.

Real science is much more fun to learn about, far more innovative, far more open to new ideas, and much more awe-inspiring than your empty, blind superstitions.

But hey, understanding much of science is difficult and requires a lot of thought, whereas superstition is far easier and doesn't require any thinking at all...
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SusanDoris

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #132 on: April 02, 2016, 11:57:47 AM »
#131

seconded.
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Sriram

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #133 on: April 02, 2016, 12:57:59 PM »
So, you haven't the first clue how to do it but you really, really want science to take your superstitions seriously. Even though you've provided no reason to take your unevidenced stories any more seriously than any other baseless story.

Considering how much science has advanced and all the radically new and counter-intuitive ideas that have been adopted, this statement is comical in its ignorance.

Real science is much more fun to learn about, far more innovative, far more open to new ideas, and much more awe-inspiring than your empty, blind superstitions.

But hey, understanding much of science is difficult and requires a lot of thought, whereas superstition is far easier and doesn't require any thinking at all...


Superstitions?!  Really?!!  ::)

NDE's are real experiences that millions of people have around the world everyday....documented by eminent doctors. They are post death experiences....often after brain death. Read Sam Parnia.

'Miracle' cures are also real cures documented by doctors.  I am not making up NDE's or 'miracle' cures. 

Use your brains! 

No doubt....I do want science to take these experiences seriously in a relevant manner that is befitting the nature of the experiences.  Now what is your problem with that, precisely?!

Stranger

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #134 on: April 02, 2016, 01:20:00 PM »
Superstitions?!  Really?!!  ::)

Well, unless you can give any more reason to take your favoured 'explanations' (life after death, souls and so on) any more seriously than telepathy from Andromeda, then yes, absolutely.

NDE's are real experiences that millions of people have around the world everyday....documented by eminent doctors. They are post death experiences....often after brain death. Read Sam Parnia.

'Miracle' cures are also real cures documented by doctors.  I am not making up NDE's or 'miracle' cures.

I know they are real experiences and I know that sometimes people get better unexpectably, it's the superstitious 'explanations' that you admit you can't think of any way to test, that is in dispute.

No doubt....I do want science to take these experiences seriously in a relevant manner that is befitting the nature of the experiences in accordance with what I'd like to be true.  Now what is your problem with that, precisely?!
FIFY

[edit for typo]
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 03:35:57 PM by Some Kind of Stranger »
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ippy

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #135 on: April 02, 2016, 01:44:23 PM »

Superstitions?!  Really?!!  ::)

NDE's are real experiences that millions of people have around the world everyday....documented by eminent doctors. They are post death experiences....often after brain death. Read Sam Parnia.

'Miracle' cures are also real cures documented by doctors.  I am not making up NDE's or 'miracle' cures. 

Use your brains! 

No doubt....I do want science to take these experiences seriously in a relevant manner that is befitting the nature of the experiences.  Now what is your problem with that, precisely?!

Lots of people do share these NDEs that you refer to and that's a fact, it's the interpretation of whatever it is that causes these events, that this thread is, or should be, discussing.

It's fairly easy to dismiss blue elephant type believers from the fray and look for rational reasons why this common to so many, NDE experiences happen.

I rather favour the gradual slowing down of the necessary supply of life giving blood to our brains causes the light at the end of the tunnel and the other kinds of happenings/sensations that are commonly known about by people that have NDEs.

The answers why these common NDE effects happen are very unlikely to be discovered by someone having a blue elephant of a revelation day and more than likely to be learned about by scientists doing research in an orderly well researched fashion.

One thing is certain it wont be is, I don't know why NDEs happen, so it must be some sort of a blue faced god with a trunk, if it wasn't for the fact there are so many people have these blue elephant Ju Ju in the sky regressive beliefs it would be far more laughable.

Cloud cuckoo land Sriram, what's it like there?

ippy

     

Udayana

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #136 on: April 02, 2016, 03:16:45 PM »
...
The answers why these common NDE effects happen are very unlikely to be discovered by someone having a blue elephant of a revelation day and more than likely to be learned about by scientists doing research in an orderly well researched fashion.
...
     

Isn't that what Sriram is looking for? He certainly hasn't claimed they are anything to do with Ganesha.

I, on the other hand - having experienced something similar years ago, just don't believe that anything useful can be found from scientific research into it. There is no point calling for a "new science" unless you can show how it is going to work.

Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Maeght

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #137 on: April 02, 2016, 03:29:19 PM »
There is no point calling for a "new science" unless you can show how it is going to work.

Absolutely.

Sriram

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #138 on: April 02, 2016, 03:49:09 PM »
The New Science will show how it works! That should be obvious.

It's already happening.

Maeght

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #139 on: April 02, 2016, 03:54:43 PM »
The New Science will show how it works! That should be obvious.

It's already happening.

Its obvious that science will explain it.

Enki

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #140 on: April 02, 2016, 03:59:46 PM »

There is a reason why those experiments don't work.

What is to be remembered is that when we talk of spiritual life.....'up' and 'down' don't mean anything....much like in outer space.  Its gravity on earth that creates this up and down.

Its like Parallel Universes existing inches away from us. Are they up or down or where?!  They are just there around us everywhere.... in some sort of another dimension or something.

Similarly, when people leave their bodies and go 'up'... its not really meaningful in a physical sense to talk of a 'up'. Its not that they go to the floors above and see all other patients on those floors....and not the ones on the floors below.

They just go into another dimension that we can only refer to as 'above'.....but they need not see all things situated physically above the patient or the room.

Its also a moment when the patients are in a strong mental and emotional state....such that what they desire or feel is seen more intensely than things they don't care for. They are drawn towards things they feel strongly about. 

Its not a casual fly by....looking around at all sign boards on the way.

So, you immediately limit yourself to your idea that the 'spirit' body moves into another 'dimension' where they don't necessarily see all things in the room where their physical body is lying, and further, you seek to explain this lack of evidence also on the 'strong mental and emotional state'of their spirit body such that it wouldn't take notice of discreetly placed symbols. And you don't say that this is just a possible explanation, you actually state clearly that this is what happens. Strange, because you don't give any actual evidence at all that your version is indeed what happens. it seems to be pure conjecture on your part, backed only by anecdotal evidence. Possible, of course. However, so is the idea that there is no such thing as the 'spirit' at all which moves away from the body in an OBE.

Why do you do this? After all, you accuse science of not taking on board alternative ideas. So, to be consistent, you should do the same, or you begin to look as if you are simply taking an extremely biased viewpoint. You should be looking actively for methods and evidence which are rigorous enough to support you own conjectures. Yet all you ever seem to do is deride science for its objective limitations, without actually suggesting any practical way that it might 'evolve' yet retain its objective viewpoint.

 
Interestingly, not all those who have a positive interest in NDEs and OBEs think like you and do undertake such veridical experiments (including, of course, the latest ones by Sam Parnia in his AWARE experiments, which again proved fruitless).

Indeed, his prolonged AWARE study conclusion has these words:

Quote
Thus, while it was not possible to absolutely prove the reality or meaning of patients’ experiences and claims of awareness, (due to the very low incidence (2 per cent) of explicit recall of visual awareness or so called OBE’s), it was impossible to disclaim them either and more work is needed in this area. Clearly, the recalled experience surrounding death now merits further genuine investigation without prejudice

with which I would entirely agree, noting particularly the last two words.
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
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Stranger

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #141 on: April 02, 2016, 04:01:15 PM »
The New Science will show how it works! That should be obvious.

It's already happening.



It's all those purple aliens from Andromeda, I tell you!!

Why won't you take me seriously!?  I'm right, you know!

You'll see!!


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ekim

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #142 on: April 02, 2016, 04:29:17 PM »
I believe I have posted this link before.   It is a short talk by neuroanatomist Jill Bolte Taylor and her views of her inner experience when she had a severe stroke and how she related it to her scientific background.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyyjU8fzEYU

Brownie

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #143 on: April 02, 2016, 04:30:49 PM »
Just in case anyone is interested, I've seen a series advertised which airs (tomorrow I think) on CMS Reality at 10pm, called ''It's a Miracle''.  It is hosted by Roma Downey;  I'd never heard of her but when I looked her up she has a good cv and I vaguely remember her as Jackie Kennedy Onassis in a miniseries years ago.

I may watch ''It's a Miracle'', which apparently first aired sometime last year in the States, if I remember.  Might be worth a look and is relevant to this thread.

(Just seen your post ekim, thanks for the link.  I will look at it later.)
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torridon

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #144 on: April 02, 2016, 06:22:57 PM »
I believe I have posted this link before.   It is a short talk by neuroanatomist Jill Bolte Taylor and her views of her inner experience when she had a severe stroke and how she related it to her scientific background.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyyjU8fzEYU

thanks for that, a remarkable TED talk

Étienne d'Angleterre

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #145 on: April 02, 2016, 06:43:44 PM »



NDE's are real experiences that millions of people have around the world everyday....documented by eminent doctors. They are post death experiences....often after brain death. Read Sam Parnia.


This often puzzles me how do you know when the experience took place? You often hear that so and so was dead for 3 minutes and that is when they had the experience. How could you know?

I dream most nights but in most cases I couldn't really say at what the time the dream took place.

Leonard James

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #146 on: April 02, 2016, 07:27:32 PM »
This often puzzles me how do you know when the experience took place? You often hear that so and so was dead for 3 minutes and that is when they had the experience. How could you know?

I dream most nights but in most cases I couldn't really say at what the time the dream took place.

Exactly! They must have occurred when there was brain activity, so they must have been "alive" at the time.

ippy

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #147 on: April 02, 2016, 09:00:59 PM »
Isn't that what Sriram is looking for? He certainly hasn't claimed they are anything to do with Ganesha.

I, on the other hand - having experienced something similar years ago, just don't believe that anything useful can be found from scientific research into it. There is no point calling for a "new science" unless you can show how it is going to work.

The name of his blue elephant is of no importance to me, it represents old ignorant primitive beliefs made up by, probably assumed to be wise village elders, or something similar to explain, so many of the natural happenings around them that they were less able to understand.

A lot of their lack of understandings of how the natural world worked was not necessarily their own fault it' a lot easier for us in this day and age where we have the advantage of now thousands of years of accumulated knowledge, I'm sure as time goes by and we continue with our advances in neurological research there will surly be a lot of answers found out about things that are commonly coincidental perceptions made by our brains; I'll put scientific research to the front to find out the reasons for NDEs before the primitive great Ju JU in the sky revelation methods any time.   

Science is science, call it new science if you feel some sort of need to do so, it's just science to me?

ippy 

Udayana

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #148 on: April 02, 2016, 09:42:09 PM »
The story of Ganesha certainly does not explain any natural "happenings" and probably was not intended to. I fail to see the relevance of dragging it in here, or the great "Ju Ju", either as no-one has suggested either have anything to do with NDEs or "miracle cures".

Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #149 on: April 02, 2016, 10:11:06 PM »
The name of his blue elephant is of no importance to me, it represents old ignorant primitive beliefs made up by, probably assumed to be wise village elders, or something similar to explain, so many of the natural happenings around them that they were less able to understand.

A lot of their lack of understandings of how the natural world worked was not necessarily their own fault it' a lot easier for us in this day and age where we have the advantage of now thousands of years of accumulated knowledge, I'm sure as time goes by and we continue with our advances in neurological research there will surly be a lot of answers found out about things that are commonly coincidental perceptions made by our brains; I'll put scientific research to the front to find out the reasons for NDEs before the primitive great Ju JU in the sky revelation methods any time.   

Science is science, call it new science if you feel some sort of need to do so, it's just science to me?

ippy

juJu Skymethod?

Isn't he in Star Wars?