Author Topic: Miracles from Heaven  (Read 20527 times)

Udayana

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #175 on: April 03, 2016, 12:25:59 PM »
This is what might lie behind meditation where the critical, analysing, conceptualising part of the mind losses its dominance and an intensity arises which is later described as consciously expansive, blissful, powerful, enlivening etc. until the left mind kicks in.  Nobody in their right mind wants this. ;)

Jill Bolte Taylor's TED video talk was very interesting and described some of the effects very well - as well as meditation they are also similar to effects under various drugs.

The thing is that, as individuals, we experience "reality" through our minds. What we suppose reality to be is affected by the workings of our brains and consciousness and we can't ultimately say that our consciousness does not create the universe around us. Science is all about discussing those aspects that we can identify in common*, and come to useful conclusions about them.

* For the sake of argument I'm assuming that you lot are actually listening and I'm not typing into a vacuum :)
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Enki

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #176 on: April 03, 2016, 01:04:49 PM »
From enki, reply #140:

Just a one-off comment (and possible reply) aside, if I may.

Enki, I recall you telling us on a couple of occasions that your father was a spiritist, and that he once taught you how to divide a cloud with your thoughts. I'm just curious as to why you seem to have, what seems to be, rejected everything he may have shown you. And any talk of 'spirit'.

I understand if you do not want to comment on my observation.

Hi SweetPea,

Indeed my father was a spiritualist(not spiritist). He even claimed to have a Red Indian guide. It is worth saying that many spiritualists at that time claimed to have guides, many of whom were Red indian, by the way. As a young man I attended many a spiritualist meeting by choice, and I was not impressed at all. Sometimes I had messages from whatever spiritualist medium was present, and it became obvious to me that they were attempting to 'cold read'. Occasionally I played up to their questioning, and found that they simply built on the ideas that came from me, however false they were. Unfortunately it seemed to be the case that their spirit guides couldn't see through my falsehoods at all. So, it was a case of garbage in, garbage out.

One thing my father never did was to try to influence me in accordance with his beliefs, and for that I am grateful.

Yes, indeed, he suggested that he had the ability to break up clouds by the power of his thoughts, especially white fluffy ones. I too found I had the ability to break up clouds as long as I concentrated on them for long enough. It didn't take me long however to work out that such clouds are quite naturally continually changing their shape, dissipating, joining etc. and this had nothing at all to do with my mental abilities. Indeed, I remember doing the same trick with my own children and grandchildren, and, wonder of wonders, they could do it too. Of course, when the trick had run its course, I always told them that it had nothing to do with the mind, but everything to do with the nature of clouds.


You also might be interested in knowing that myself, my wife, my brother-in-law and a friend(when we were all much younger) actually investigated a series of 'ghostly' happenings that were supposed to have occurred in our local area. I remember, on one occasion, staying all night(Xmas Eve, actually) at a local working men's club in the centre of Hull(it had originally been a set of Victorian police cells, where, reportedly several inmates had died.) I won't bother you with the details of the so called 'ghostly' happenings that had been reported, but suffice it to say that we found not the slightest evidence of anything untoward, and, indeed, we were able to explain, by quite natural means, one of the pieces of phenomena that others had experienced.

So, to answer your question regarding my father. It's no problem at all, by the way. I'm sure he did influence me in all sorts of ways, as did my mother(e.g. moral thinking, curiosity, interest in science etc.) He actually built a 'cat's whisker' radio which fitted into a ring, then built a superb valve radio, and I had the greatest respect for his talents.

However, probably because I have never come across any demonstrable evidence of 'spiritual' powers, or gods etc., until that time arrives, I have no belief in such things. If others wish to believe in such things, fine, as long as it causes no harm, and they do not start claiming such things as 'facts' for others when they clearly are not. The fact that my father was a spiritualist makes not one jot of difference to my lack of belief in such matters, except I would claim perhaps that it gave me greater insight into the workings of spiritualism. He was well aware of my views and it caused no problems whatever.

I am much more in sympathy with, for instance, such books as 'Snake Oil' by the late John Diamond or 'Bad Science' by Ben Goldacre, and I have a distinct dislike of the idea of attempting to ride on the back of what science produces in order to retrofit it to cherished beliefs(often with no understanding of what the science actually says/does not say) when no such action is warranted.
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ippy

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #177 on: April 03, 2016, 01:08:21 PM »
It wasn't. It was clearly a snide remark intended to offend.

Yes it wasn't obtuse; I mostly agree with N S, clearly I think he makes his posts far more complicated than is necessary, it looks like you didn't pick that up, I thought that remark wasn't insinuating anything, it was pretty direct attempt to point out that it might be better if he were to make posts that were a lot more clear which in turn would make them easier to understand.

I think by reading N S's posts he shows that he has the intelligence that would enable him to have understood my comment and assuming he understood me that knocks snide right out of the picture.

I'm sure you don't agree but don't bother.

ippy


« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 01:21:29 PM by ippy »

Sriram

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #178 on: April 03, 2016, 01:15:57 PM »
Whooa slow down there.

You talk as if we had found a way to test the idea that NDEs are actual other life experiences, when all along you have been saying that you admit there is no way to test the idea.

So, truthfully, your interpretation is only a conjecture, at best, hardly a done deal.

Observing that a dying brain might routinely produce such phenomenology is hardly 'rubbish'.  Even a healthy brain produces bizarre phenomenology at times, have you never had a nightmare, for instance ? It would be strange if a brain severely compromised and hypoxic with numerous constituent organs going into shutdown did not produce some strange experiences, memories of which might be recoverable should the patient recover.

What are you talking about?

1. Millions of patients say that they left their bodies, saw it from the outside, met dead relatives, saw a life review, met a Being of Light, observed details of happenings around the body...and much more.

2. Doctors have confirmed in most cases that the patient was medically dead (even brain dead in many cases) at the time he said he had the experience.

3. It is independent of  gender, age etc.

4. The doctors and other people corroborated the observations of the patients with regards to the happenings in the OT or accident site. Things that the patient could not have known because he was lying dead or unconscious at the time.

After all these accounts....you say that I should not take their word for it... rather I should take your word that the brain was in some 'severely compromised and hyponix state' because of which it happened to produce such experiences. 

Why would I accept your far fetched explanation instead of taking the word of the patients themselves and the doctors attending on them?

Why would the dying brain (or dead brain) produce such happy, coherent and meaningful experiences? How do you KNOW it can or that it does?  It is just a conjecture on your part.

I am merely accepting the word of the patients and doctors...while you are the one coming up with far fetched alternative explanations.   

I am even saying that the experiences should be further investigated with proper tools and methods....while you are pronouncing a judgement on the experiences straight away.

Leonard James

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #179 on: April 03, 2016, 01:18:50 PM »
What are you talking about?


2. Doctors have confirmed in most cases that the patient was medically dead (even brain dead in many cases) at the time he said he had the experience.



Rubbish. There is no way that either the patient or the doctors can know precisely at what time the experience occurred.

ippy

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #180 on: April 03, 2016, 01:19:17 PM »
???

Again......the after-life is what the NDE people actually experience...remember?! Its's not something 'invented' by me or anyone.

YOU are making it 'magic' by saying its not a testable hypothesis and it is supernatural and all that. YOU and people like you are constantly keeping it out of the realm of science.

I am saying that.... find a way of testing it. The current methods are inadequate......and brushing it off as hallucinatory is rubbish That is all I am saying.

Do you get it......?!!

Sriram is there any possibility you could tell us how you know that an NDE's, "the after-life is what the NDE people actually experience.." , are there any links, that show the evidence?     

Or are you doing a Sass?

ippy

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #181 on: April 03, 2016, 01:27:54 PM »
* For the sake of argument I'm assuming that you lot are actually listening and I'm not typing into a vacuum
:)Yes, definitely reading!!


#178  Sriram
Absolute rubbish from start to finish. I do hope you do not try to tell any child that such ideas are true or have any credibility, because if you do, you are telling them falsehoods.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 01:38:22 PM by SusanDoris »
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jeremyp

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #182 on: April 03, 2016, 01:30:20 PM »
1. Millions of patients say that they left their bodies, saw it from the outside, met dead relatives, saw a life review, met a Being of Light, observed details of happenings around the body...and much more.
Last time I was not conscious I had a dinner date with Steffi Graf. It turned out not to be real.

Quote
2. Doctors have confirmed in most cases that the patient was medically dead (even brain dead in many cases) at the time he said he had the experience.
Now I know you are lying. If somebody is brain dead they are not coming back to tell you about their NDE's. Or do you mean "brain dead" as in the insult for something that is really very stupid?

Quote
4. The doctors and other people corroborated the observations of the patients with regards to the happenings in the OT or accident site. Things that the patient could not have known because he was lying dead or unconscious at the time.

And yet, when steps are taken to make sure the patient really couldn't have known such as hiding cards in inaccessible places, the effect goes away and the excuses start.


Quote
I am even saying that the experiences should be further investigated with proper tools and methods....while you are pronouncing a judgement on the experiences straight away.
They have been and the results are entirely negative.
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Stranger

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #183 on: April 03, 2016, 01:56:18 PM »
What are you talking about?

1. Millions of patients say that they left their bodies, saw it from the outside, met dead relatives, saw a life review, met a Being of Light, observed details of happenings around the body...and much more.

2. Doctors have confirmed in most cases that the patient was medically dead (even brain dead in many cases) at the time he said he had the experience.

How, exactly can either patient or doctor know when the experience occurred? The patient isn't able to report it at the time you are claiming it happened as they were busy being 'dead'.

Look, let's run with your fantasies for a moment. There is plenty of evidence that memories are stored in the physical brain, or, at the very least, need the brain in order to be recalled when our bodies are alive. When certain parts of the brain are damaged, memory is impaired.

So, if this soul floats away from the brain 'cos the brain has stopped working and gathers the memory of the experience by some other means, it still can't connect it, or store it, in the brain until the brain starts working again. So, even if the experience happens when the brain is not working, it can't affect the brain (and hence become recallable in the alive state) until it does start working again.

Even if what you say is true, the brain doesn't get connected to the experience until it has started to recover. Physically speaking, the experience can only arrive in the brain when it is working.

What is being recalled, via the memory of the brain, cannot have happened during 'death' - even if the soul gathered it at that time.

Is it not much, much simpler to ditch the superstitious wishful thinking and conclude that that is actually when the experience happened? Occam an' all that.

« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 02:06:55 PM by Some Kind of Stranger »
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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #184 on: April 03, 2016, 02:06:06 PM »
Why would I accept your far fetched explanation instead of taking the word of the patients themselves and the doctors attending on them?

You have an utterly bizarre idea of what is far-fetched.

Hey, Sriram, I've just experienced an encounter with God and It told me that you are wrong, It created us as entirely physical beings.

Are you going to take what I've said I've experienced seriously....?

Why would the dying brain (or dead brain) produce such happy, coherent and meaningful experiences? How do you KNOW it can or that it does?  It is just a conjecture on your part.

I haven't a clue. Neither do you.

The point is the only why to reliably find out is to gather data, formulate testable hypotheses and then test them.

What people experience is only one part of that.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 02:15:03 PM by Some Kind of Stranger »
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Sriram

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #185 on: April 03, 2016, 02:32:18 PM »



Tut..Tut!!  There is so much denial of actual occurrences here .....it is almost religious!  Oh...the pitfalls of strong beliefs!! What can I say.

To conclude....I agree with the author in the OP that new scientific methods and methodologies need to evolve so that further research can be carried out meaningfully in such exotic areas as NDE's 'miracle cures' etc.

Cheers guys.

Sriram

SweetPea

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #186 on: April 03, 2016, 02:34:22 PM »
Indeed, that was how things appeared to me. Even as I experienced it I knew that it couldn't be relied on as any kind of actual evidence - that also seemed very funny. Not sure why, as I was also well aware that I had just smashed into the road headfirst in a motorbike crash :)

Thanks for the reply, Udayana. But that is where it is such a shame, because your experience should be classed as evidence. Until science starts to pick-up on personal subjective experiences, how can it move forward.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 02:40:17 PM by SweetPea »
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SweetPea

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #187 on: April 03, 2016, 02:38:47 PM »
Hi SweetPea,

Indeed my father was a spiritualist(not spiritist). He even claimed to have a Red Indian guide. It is worth saying that many spiritualists at that time claimed to have guides, many of whom were Red indian, by the way. As a young man I attended many a spiritualist meeting by choice, and I was not impressed at all. Sometimes I had messages from whatever spiritualist medium was present, and it became obvious to me that they were attempting to 'cold read'. Occasionally I played up to their questioning, and found that they simply built on the ideas that came from me, however false they were. Unfortunately it seemed to be the case that their spirit guides couldn't see through my falsehoods at all. So, it was a case of garbage in, garbage out.

One thing my father never did was to try to influence me in accordance with his beliefs, and for that I am grateful.

Yes, indeed, he suggested that he had the ability to break up clouds by the power of his thoughts, especially white fluffy ones. I too found I had the ability to break up clouds as long as I concentrated on them for long enough. It didn't take me long however to work out that such clouds are quite naturally continually changing their shape, dissipating, joining etc. and this had nothing at all to do with my mental abilities. Indeed, I remember doing the same trick with my own children and grandchildren, and, wonder of wonders, they could do it too. Of course, when the trick had run its course, I always told them that it had nothing to do with the mind, but everything to do with the nature of clouds.


You also might be interested in knowing that myself, my wife, my brother-in-law and a friend(when we were all much younger) actually investigated a series of 'ghostly' happenings that were supposed to have occurred in our local area. I remember, on one occasion, staying all night(Xmas Eve, actually) at a local working men's club in the centre of Hull(it had originally been a set of Victorian police cells, where, reportedly several inmates had died.) I won't bother you with the details of the so called 'ghostly' happenings that had been reported, but suffice it to say that we found not the slightest evidence of anything untoward, and, indeed, we were able to explain, by quite natural means, one of the pieces of phenomena that others had experienced.

So, to answer your question regarding my father. It's no problem at all, by the way. I'm sure he did influence me in all sorts of ways, as did my mother(e.g. moral thinking, curiosity, interest in science etc.) He actually built a 'cat's whisker' radio which fitted into a ring, then built a superb valve radio, and I had the greatest respect for his talents.

However, probably because I have never come across any demonstrable evidence of 'spiritual' powers, or gods etc., until that time arrives, I have no belief in such things. If others wish to believe in such things, fine, as long as it causes no harm, and they do not start claiming such things as 'facts' for others when they clearly are not. The fact that my father was a spiritualist makes not one jot of difference to my lack of belief in such matters, except I would claim perhaps that it gave me greater insight into the workings of spiritualism. He was well aware of my views and it caused no problems whatever.

I am much more in sympathy with, for instance, such books as 'Snake Oil' by the late John Diamond or 'Bad Science' by Ben Goldacre, and I have a distinct dislike of the idea of attempting to ride on the back of what science produces in order to retrofit it to cherished beliefs(often with no understanding of what the science actually says/does not say) when no such action is warranted.

Thanks, enki, for the comprehensive reply. I do hope I have not been too intrusive.
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Stranger

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #188 on: April 03, 2016, 02:42:57 PM »
Tut..Tut!!  There is so much denial of actual occurrences here .....it is almost religious!  Oh...the pitfalls of strong beliefs!! What can I say.

Oh FFS, nobody is denying anything that can be objectively verified; reported experiences in NDEs and unexpected recoveries.

It's your blind devotion to a particular far-fetched explanation - which you admit cannot be tested and have totally failed to justify - that is in question.

To conclude....I agree with the author in the OP that new scientific methods and methodologies need to evolve so that further research can be carried out meaningfully in such exotic areas as NDE's 'miracle cures' etc.

But cannot even begin to say what said "scientific methods and methodologies" might be.

 ::)

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Udayana

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #189 on: April 03, 2016, 03:07:56 PM »

Thanks for the reply, Udayana. But that is where it is such a shame, because your experience should be classed as evidence. Until science starts to pick-up on personal subjective experiences, how can it move forward.
Science has been moving forwards as long as humans have been thinking, sometimes into dead ends from which it has to retreat from and find a new path. It does take personal subjective experiences into account, but such experiences are not sufficient to build reliable models on.

The best way to progress for now, is to research further into how the brain itself works, how neuron network activity results in vision, memory, imagination and so on, and what is actually happening on these networks during mental events, illness, seizures and so on, even death.

If there is a point to life, it is to live it as you experience it. If you believe that something follows on after, that's fine - there's no need for it to be proved logically or scientifically and there is no need for everyone to share that belief.
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Maeght

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #190 on: April 03, 2016, 04:55:01 PM »
Thanks for the reply, Udayana. But that is where it is such a shame, because your experience should be classed as evidence. Until science starts to pick-up on personal subjective experiences, how can it move forward.

Science is, and will continue to, move forward without needing to use the unreliable personal subjective experiences.

Étienne d'Angleterre

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #191 on: April 03, 2016, 05:33:24 PM »
What are you talking about?


2. Doctors have confirmed in most cases that the patient was medically dead (even brain dead in many cases) at the time he said he had the experience.


How could someone know this to be the case?

jeremyp

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #192 on: April 03, 2016, 05:40:07 PM »


Tut..Tut!!  There is so much denial of actual occurrences here .....it is almost religious!  Oh...the pitfalls of strong beliefs!! What can I say.

You are the one claiming that brain dead people have reported NDE's. That's so obviously utter bullshit that even you must realise your credibility left on the last train to reason some time ago.

Quote
To conclude....I agree with the author in the OP that new scientific methods and methodologies need to evolve so that further research can be carried out meaningfully in such exotic areas as NDE's 'miracle cures' etc.


OK fine, but the problem is that when these new methods show - what every sane person already knows - that NDE's are artefacts of a mind under stress, you'll deny it and claim we need some new new method.
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Shaker

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #193 on: April 03, 2016, 05:42:03 PM »
Ah yes. Sriram's not merely new science, but new new science.
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torridon

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #194 on: April 03, 2016, 05:45:45 PM »
What are you talking about?

1. Millions of patients say that they left their bodies, saw it from the outside, met dead relatives, saw a life review, met a Being of Light, observed details of happenings around the body...and much more.

2. Doctors have confirmed in most cases that the patient was medically dead (even brain dead in many cases) at the time he said he had the experience.

3. It is independent of  gender, age etc.

4. The doctors and other people corroborated the observations of the patients with regards to the happenings in the OT or accident site. Things that the patient could not have known because he was lying dead or unconscious at the time.

After all these accounts....you say that I should not take their word for it... rather I should take your word that the brain was in some 'severely compromised and hyponix state' because of which it happened to produce such experiences. 

Why would I accept your far fetched explanation instead of taking the word of the patients themselves and the doctors attending on them?

Why would the dying brain (or dead brain) produce such happy, coherent and meaningful experiences? How do you KNOW it can or that it does?  It is just a conjecture on your part.

I am merely accepting the word of the patients and doctors...while you are the one coming up with far fetched alternative explanations.   

I am even saying that the experiences should be further investigated with proper tools and methods....while you are pronouncing a judgement on the experiences straight away.

What am I taking about ?

I thought we were talking about ways to formulate hypotheses that could provide testing grounds to allow us to verify, or not, your ideas.  I was under the impression you agreed that such was probably impossible, but judging by the above spiel it looks like you aren't interested in evidence anyway, you've gone and made your own mind up without any any recourse to objective verification.  That's the problem with believers, by and large, they are more interested in strengthening their beliefs than finding out actual truth. 

That people sometimes have strange experiences is hardly news; that brains produce strange phenomenology under certain conditions is hardly news. Why do you think we have psychiatrists ? Brains quite easily produce irregular function and altered consciousness states.  Ekim posted up a TED talk on this thread, did you watch it ? It concerns a lady who had an out of body experience, had euphoria, such things as you like to consider as glimpses of some after life, yet it was clear in her case it was due to left hemispheric shutdown following a stroke.  Brains produce such phenomenology under a variety of adverse circumstances so we already have sufficient explanatory grounds in which to understand them in medical terms.  If you want to take such claims at face value and hijack them to try to validate some extraordinary hypothetic alternate reality well you're the one out on a limb I'm afraid.  Trouble is, people who do that, are missing the real significance that we can learn in terms of brain function.  It's naive to simply take anecdotal claims at face value; that's been a lesson that we have learned the hard way; if your 'zoom-out' notion means unlearning such lessons then we might as well go back to our caves and start grunting in the dark again.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 05:48:29 PM by torridon »

Leonard James

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #195 on: April 03, 2016, 07:03:07 PM »
...we might as well go back to our caves and start grunting in the dark again.

Where do I sign up?

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #197 on: April 04, 2016, 10:13:29 AM »

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #198 on: April 04, 2016, 01:57:08 PM »


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/03/12/first-hint-of-life-after-death-in-biggest-ever-scientific-study/

Something recent from March 2016.

Excerpts:

*****************

The largest ever medical study into near-death and out-of-body experiences has discovered that some awareness may continue even after the brain has shut down completely.

But scientists at the University of Southampton have spent four years examining more than 2,000 people who suffered cardiac arrests at 15 hospitals in the UK, US and Austria.

And they found that nearly 40 per cent of people who survived described some kind of ‘awareness’ during the time when they were clinically dead before their hearts were restarted.

One man even recalled leaving his body entirely and watching his resuscitation from the corner of the room.

Despite being unconscious and ‘dead’ for three minutes, the 57-year-old social worker from Southampton, recounted the actions of the nursing staff in detail and described the sound of the machines.

“We know the brain can’t function when the heart has stopped beating,” said Dr Sam Parnia, a former research fellow at Southampton University, now at the State University of New York, who led the study.

“But in this case, conscious awareness appears to have continued for up to three minutes into the period when the heart wasn’t beating, even though the brain typically shuts down within 20-30 seconds after the heart has stopped.

“The man described everything that had happened in the room, but importantly, he heard two bleeps from a machine that makes a noise at three minute intervals. So we could time how long the experienced lasted for.

“He seemed very credible and everything that he said had happened to him had actually happened.”

Of 2,060 cardiac arrest patients studied, 330 survived and of 140 surveyed, 39 per cent said they had experienced some kind of awareness while being resuscitated.

Some recalled seeing a bright light; a golden flash or the Sun shining. Others recounted feelings of fear or drowning or being dragged through deep water. 13 per cent said they had felt separated from their bodies and the same number said their sensed had been heightened.

“Many people have assumed that these were hallucinations or illusions but they do seem to corresponded to actual events.

“And a higher proportion of people may have vivid death experiences, but do not recall them due to the effects of brain injury or sedative drugs on memory circuits.

“There is some very good evidence here that these experiences are actually happening after people have medically died.

“We just don’t know what is going on. We are still very much in the dark about what happens when you die and hopefully this study will help shine a scientific lens onto that.”

The study was published in the journal Resuscitation.

*******************

Cheers.

Sriram

Enki

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Re: Miracles from Heaven
« Reply #199 on: April 04, 2016, 03:06:25 PM »
And just to give another view of the same AWARE study:

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/aware-results-finally-published-no-evidence-of-nde/

The last two sentences I find interesting.
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
Steven Wright