Food for thought for Christians

[Owlswing]

An article from the Spectator that might well ruffle rather more than a few feathers on this forum.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/03/british-christians-must-start-to-think-and-act-like-a-minority/

Especially this particular statement:

The idea that some separation of church and state exists in England is a recent, fatuous import from America: we still have an established church and policy has always been framed by religious viewpoints.

[Leonard James]

It's a tad disheartening that in this day and age people are still caught up by religious beliefs.

It was understandable in bygone days when we didn't have all the answers to the questions formed by our inquisitive minds, so we invented spirits and gods to fill the gaps. I suppose the idea became so ingrained into human culture that it is going to be difficult to grow out of it.

[floo]

Religion of any sort and politics certainly don't mix.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Leonard,

It's a tad disheartening that in this day and age people are still caught up by religious beliefs.

It's in your Genes old fruit, you can't escape it, you are a religious and spiritual animal.

Gonnagle.

[Leonard James]

Dear Leonard,

It's in your Genes old fruit, you can't escape it, you are a religious and spiritual animal.

Gonnagle.

Nah! I once was caught up in it because a was born into a Christian family and culture, but as soon as I was able to reason for myself I was able to get free. Others aren't so lucky.

[Hope]

An article from the Spectator that might well ruffle rather more than a few feathers on this forum.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/03/british-christians-must-start-to-think-and-act-like-a-minority/

Especially this particular statement:

The idea that some separation of church and state exists in England is a recent, fatuous import from America: we still have an established church and policy has always been framed by religious viewpoints.

Owl, I think the sad thing is that there has been a move within the CofE for the last 50+ years to disestablish, but it has almost always been blocked by 1) the laity or 2) the Parliament of the day.  As for the idea that 'British Christians must start to think and act as a minority', many already do.  Remember that there are probably more members of non-established churches in the UK than there are of the CofE (I intentionally didn't use the term Anglican, because 2 of the 3 main Anglican churches in the UK are already disestablished - not sure about that in N. Ireland).  Secondly, how does one 'act as a minority'?  Does one spend a lot of time and money vocalising one's opinions?  Does one subvert society?  Does one challenge what one sees as poor legislation and policy making?

[Gonnagle]

Dear Owlswing,

Good article and is that not what every Christian on this forum is doing, fighting its corner.

Christians have to prove not only that they have a right to speak their mind but also that everyone else benefits from having a healthy religious culture. In the past few centuries, Christians have contributed towards the abolition of slavery, the clearing of slums, the fight against low wages and the resistance to totalitarianism. They still have many wonders to perform.

Damn right!! Christians must come out of the cupboard ( Christians don't have closets, it is against our religion ) and fight for our right to party, problem about this is that, the Catholics are in the kitchen hogging the bread sticks, the CoE are in the lounge hogging the wine cabinet, the CoS are in the toilet with the whisky greetin that naebody luvs them and the YEC are outside in the garden giving an evolutionist a good kicking.

Gonnagle.

[Hope]

Nah! I once was caught up in it because a was born into a Christian family and culture, but as soon as I was able to reason for myself I was able to get free. Others aren't so lucky.

And therein lies the problem, Len; were you really 'able to get free' or did you simply get caught up in an equally (in your terms) restrictive understanding?  Obviously, there will be some who agree with you, there will be some who don't, and there will be some who regard being 'able to get free' to involve the adoption of a religious faith.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Nah! I once was caught up in it because a was born into a Christian family and culture, but as soon as I was able to reason for myself I was able to get free. Others aren't so lucky.

Somebody else equating reason with atheism.....weird.

[Stranger]

Somebody else equating reason with atheism.....weird.

Got a reasoned (or evidenced) argument for any gods...?

[Leonard James]

And therein lies the problem, Len;

Problem? I don't have one.

...were you really 'able to get free' or did you simply get caught up in an equally (in your terms) restrictive understanding?

My understanding is not restrictive, Hope, I am always ready to consider new evidence and change my beliefs if I find it convincing.

  Obviously, there will be some who agree with you, there will be some who don't, and there will be some who regard being 'able to get free' to involve the adoption of a religious faith.

It would be an uninteresting old world if we all agreed, wouldn't it? 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Got a reasoned (or evidenced) argument for any gods...?

reason equals science?

[Stranger]

Got a reasoned (or evidenced) argument for any gods...?

reason equals science?

No. And I'll take your answer to be a no too.

[2Corrie]

An article from the Spectator that might well ruffle rather more than a few feathers on this forum.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/03/british-christians-must-start-to-think-and-act-like-a-minority/

Actually this article makes some valuable points. Britain indeed is a post-Christian society, and that needs to inform our evangelism. At the same time I think that the church sometimes needs to heed the Lord's words 'render to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's.' The trouble comes when the church tries to wear Caesar's shoes.


The church in this country is not at the point of Elijah in the cave! There is a thriving remnant.

[2Corrie]

Dear Owlswing,

Good article and is that not what every Christian on this forum is doing, fighting its corner.

Damn right!! Christians must come out of the cupboard ( Christians don't have closets, it is against our religion ) and fight for our right to party, problem about this is that, the Catholics are in the kitchen hogging the bread sticks, the CoE are in the lounge hogging the wine cabinet, the CoS are in the toilet with the whisky greetin that naebody luvs them and the YEC are outside in the garden giving an evolutionist a good kicking.

Gonnagle.

   what about the Baptists ?

[Owlswing]

  what about the Baptists ?

They couldn't swim and drowned in the font?

[Hope]

Problem? I don't have one.

And many who hold a religious faith, especially those who have moved from a position of having no faith would say the same, Len.  That suggests to me that the idea that religious faith is restrictive has no foundation, since such folk are saying that they feel freed from the restrictiveness of atheism.

[Hope]

Got a reasoned (or evidenced) argument for any gods...?

SKos, over the years I've been on this forum, a number of people have put forward cogent, reasoned and evidenced arguments for the existence of gods.  In a way, it is partly the reason that this forum still exists since some others then spend their time trying to demolish those arguments - without that much success, one has to say.

[floo]

And many who hold a religious faith, especially those who have moved from a position of having no faith would say the same, Len.  That suggests to me that the idea that religious faith is restrictive has no foundation, since such folk are saying that they feel freed from the restrictiveness of atheism.

Religions can be very restrictive, especially fundamentalist Christianity.

[Hope]

Religions can be very restrictive, especially fundamentalist Christianity.

As can atheism - certainly some of the kids I know who have grown up in atheist families have said that.  As a result, I tend to look at the common denominator between such families - and it is clearly not religion or non-religion.  That suggests that the restrictiveness is more to do with parenting skills than necessarily with the ethos of the family.

[Gordon]

SKos, over the years I've been on this forum, a number of people have put forward cogent, reasoned and evidenced arguments for the existence of gods.

Such as? We've had the 'flakey five', as advanced by Alien, but they've all been well and truly dispatched back to fallacy-land.

In a way, it is partly the reason that this forum still exists since some others then spend their time trying to demolish those arguments - without that much success, one has to say.

One has to say these 'arguments' (for want of a better term) have all been done up like the proverbial kipper because they can be shown to be fallacious. We can't get to you to produce even an outline of a defined method on which an argument for 'God' could be advanced and then verified.

[Stranger]

SKos, over the years I've been on this forum, a number of people have put forward cogent, reasoned and evidenced arguments for the existence of gods.

OK - where are they? One example will do.

[Hope]

One has to say these 'arguments' (for want of a better term) have all been done up like the proverbial kipper because they can be shown to be fallacious. We can't get to you to produce even an outline of a defined method on which an argument for 'God' could be advanced and then verified.

SKoS, take note too.  It is interesting to note that what have been called fallacious have simply been dismissed by some here on the grounds that they don't accept arguments that don't suit their naturalistic understanding of life.  LKet me give you a different example.  I can argue in Nepal that lamb is an extremely tasty meat, but many Nepaleses people will dismiss that claim on the grounds that they don't know what lamb is andhave never seen a lamb or a sheep.  They lack the experience of what a sheep is to be able to verify the claim.  That isn't to say that the claim isn't valid - just that their experience doesn't extend to this particular knowledge.

Interestingly, I can think of plenty of people who would regard your arguments, Gordon, as having been done up like the proverbial kipper because they too can be shown to be fallacious.

[Shaker]

SKos, over the years I've been on this forum, a number of people have put forward cogent, reasoned and evidenced arguments for the existence of gods.  In a way, it is partly the reason that this forum still exists since some others then spend their time trying to demolish those arguments - without that much success, one has to say.

Hello negative proof fallacy, how are you today?

[floo]

SKoS, take note too.  It is interesting to note that what have been called fallacious have simply been dismissed by some here on the grounds that they don't accept arguments that don't suit their naturalistic understanding of life.  LKet me give you a different example.  I can argue in Nepal that lamb is an extremely tasty meat, but many Nepaleses people will dismiss that claim on the grounds that they don't know what lamb is andhave never seen a lamb or a sheep.  They lack the experience of what a sheep is to be able to verify the claim.  That isn't to say that the claim isn't valid - just that their experience doesn't extend to this particular knowledge.

Interestingly, I can think of plenty of people who would regard your arguments, Gordon, as having been done up like the proverbial kipper because they too can be shown to be fallacious.

But we can prove sheep exist, you have no such evidence where god is concerned.