Food for thought for Christians

[bluehillside Retd.]

Yo Gonners,

It is always subjective, there are many paths to God.

Which one?

[Owlswing]

And that's a problem for the "true for you too" merchant. He wants his opinion to be taken seriously, but he provides no reason for it to be taken seriously. The best he could do I suppose is to say something like, "I really think my god is your god too but I have no argument for that of any kind, so I'll keep it to myself and wouldn't dream of expecting anyone else to agree with me", trainspotter club styley.

If only it were so!

I know trainspotters are nuts (I was one until the end of steam locomotives) but I certainly do not know of a single trainspotter's club that would be nuts enough to accept Vlad as a member!

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

I think the point is that Jesus was knocking as it were throughout the experience and the definition becomes in the hearing of it and the the opening of the door to it.

For me though as I have said it was accompanied with an increasing sense of community with those who experience the numinous and those who experience Christ. Please see my references to Augustine, Lewis, Pilate, Matthew etc.

Again I don't have an issue. This is an experience you have had, I don't deny it.

However, how do you know you are not mistaken in attributing it to an objectively true God?

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

I offer it because I was requested.

It was requested because you claimed to have an experience of God and to be able to know that you are not mistaken in attributing that experience of God to the objective truth of God. It seemed sensible to ask you what the experience was.

You have kind of answered that so we are just waiting on the second part.

At the moment the second part seems to be, because you really really believe it, and so do some other people. That won't cut it I'm afraid.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Stephen,

I don't see where we disagree. Or am I missing something?

No, I just wanted to explore a little the difference between "experiences" and the causes some attribute to those experiences. One of the various cheats Trollboy in particular attempts is to elide one into the other: "I had an experience that I think was Jesus getting in touch, therefore it was Jesus getting in touch, now let's have a chat about why he hasn't been in touch with you too" kind of thing.

No-one doubts that he had an "experience" all right - after all, many have and there are plenty of examples of episodes of profound feelings in the medical literature. Where it all falls apart though is in just reaching for a culturally familiar "god" as the cause of that experience is all.     

[Walt Zingmatilder]

He's extrapolating from his own experience - "Me = everybody else" - no less than Spud did in extrapolating from one experience with a gay man to all gay people being mentally ill, which is not merely extraordinarily offensive but simply wrong.

Bit of a desperate conflation there Shaker.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Owls,

I know trainspotters are nuts (I was one until the end of steam locomotives) but I certainly do not know of a single trainspotter's club that would be nuts enough to accept Vlad as a member!

Aren't the lumps of coal used in steam locomotives called "nuts"?

Hmmm...

[Gonnagle]

Dear Blue,

Which one?

All paths, even atheistic paths, we are all Gods children, anyway this has turned into thoughts on Vlad, I liked the article in the OP, stand up Christian soldiers just leave the homosexuals alone to live their lives in peace.

Gonnagle.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Stephen,

No, I just wanted to explore a little the difference between "experiences" and the causes some attribute to those experiences. One of the various cheats Trollboy in particular attempts is to elide one into the other: "I had an experience that I think was Jesus getting in touch, therefore it was Jesus getting in touch, now then let's have a chat about why he hasn't been in touch with you too" kind of thing.

No-one doubts that he had an "experience" all right - after all, many have and there are plenty of examples of episodes of profound feelings in the medical literature. Where it all falls apart though is in just reaching for a culturally familiar "god" as the cause of that experience is all.   

I was a secular humanist Hillside.
I too believed as you do that the religious were unquestionable mentally aberrant. But that's the point Bluehillside. You never question it.

Still there are ways out of your current predicament.

[SweetPea]

Certainly.
My experience starts with Sagans Cosmos and particular his idea of a cosmic community.
Very shortly after this I was given CS Lewis mere Christianity and recognised that the cosmic enthusiasm mediated through watching Sagan was a sense of the numinous.
Lewis also talks about God.God of course was for nutters and weak people or was it? That was something I had picked up unquestioningly picked up from my secular humanist roots.
God was now part of the numinous and something tied up to the Cosmos. Further reading of Lewis about God being in the dock. Awareness that God is also involved in morality. Phrase which chimes ! If you put God in the dock you find its you in the dock.
The Bible previously an old book strangely begins to become comprehensible.
Augustine's experience read, ringing words....make me a Christian but not yet.
Huge interest in what actually is the truth...Ringing words Pontius Pilate on truth.
Realisation that there is something behind Lewises and Christian writings.

Reading the bible. words that ring. Follow me and and behold I stand at the door freeze when realise that is true. Walk around in a focus on this which dissociates me from surroundings. Get a mental image of eating a pudding with no flavour as a metaphor for rejecting Christ.
Tell Jesus to take it all. Dissociation vanishes and feel great joy.

Wonderful, Vlad. Thanks so much for sharing. But it's quite risky posting an experience on this forum of finding Christ. We could do with a place for just sharing such experiences where they don't have to be put under the microscope and picked to pieces.

[bluehillside Retd.]

SP,

Wonderful, Vlad. Thanks so much for sharing. But it's quite risky posting an experience of finding Christ on this forum. We could do with a place for just sharing such experiences where they don't have to be put under the microscope and picked to pieces.

There is one - the faith sharing area.

[SweetPea]

Very true, Blue. It's difficult having been asked in the middle of a thread such as this, though.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Wonderful, Vlad. Thanks so much for sharing. But it's quite risky posting an experience on this forum of finding Christ. We could do with a place for just sharing such experiences where they don't have to be put under the microscope and picked to pieces.

I was requested for it.
I don't mind being put under the microscope but always hope they are looking through it the right way round.

[Stranger]

I was a secular humanist Hillside.
I too believed as you do that the religious were unquestionable mentally aberrant. But that's the point Bluehillside. You never question it.

I'm happy to question anything, provided there is some evidence or reasoning to work on.

I'm sure you had a very important (to you) experience.

The problem is that many people have vivid experiences and reach totally different conclusions. We need a way to distinguish which, if any, of the conclusions are correct.

You have yet to provide such a method.

[bluehillside Retd.]

SP,

Very true, Blue. It's difficult having been asked in the middle of a thread such as this, though.

To be fair he was asked on this thread to describe his "experience", which so far as I can see is what he tried to do. As ever he overreaches by asserting "Jesus" as the cause with no argument of any kind to support the assertion, but why anyone would agree with his attribution of cause is the point at which he always goes silent. Or just lies about the positions of others.

Of course he could at least try to find a way out of his predicament by attempting an argument for his attribution of cause (I'll provide the Vimto and Twiglets if he ever fancies giving it a go) but for now all we have is, "it's true because I say it's true" which isn't very helpful, and moreover which works equally for the Thor-ist and indeed for the Leprechaunist.         

[bluehillside Retd.]

Some,

You have yet to provide such a method.

Believe me, he never will.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

SP,

To be fair he was asked on this thread to describe his "experience", which so far as I can see is what he tried to do. As ever he overreaches by asserting "Jesus" as the cause with no argument of any kind to support the assertion, but why anyone would agree with his attribution of cause is the point at which he always goes silent.

Of course he could at least try to find a way out of his predicament by attempting an argument for his attribution of cause (I'll provide the Vimto and Twiglets if he ever fancies giving it a go) but for now all we have is, "it's true because I say it's true" which isn't very helpful, and moreover which works equally for the Thor-ist and indeed for the Leprechaunist.       

I believe what I have said is that the linguistic framework of philosophy, religion and specifically y Christianity accommodates my experience.

Whereas your assertion that I went yumpy one day and that there are medical papers for that is merely the desperate appeal of a person who for reasons best known to himself wishes to move swiftly on and ignore the philosophical grounds, which attend it.

I suppose what I am saying Hillside is that you are using one mother of a circular argument.

[SweetPea]

You know, the problem is, literally being on different wavelengths.

Blue, because you are on a different 'channel' to Vlad.... you'll never see it his way.

But that's how we are..... 'tis ok...

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No-one doubts that he had an "experience" all right - after all, many have and there are plenty of examples of episodes of profound feelings in the medical literature.

Hillside, what kind of medical literature is antitheist or even ontologically materialist?

[Enki]

I'm happy to question anything, provided there is some evidence or reasoning to work on.

I'm sure you had a very important (to you) experience.

The problem is that many people have vivid experiences and reach totally different conclusions. We need a way to distinguish which, if any, of the conclusions are correct.

You have yet to provide such a method.

Although I have said this before, I would like to repeat that I have had several 'experiences'. Each has been accompanied by a powerful feeling that there is no 'consciousness' in the universe at all. Strangely enough, the feelings engendered from these experiences have been quite liberating and quite humbling. However, I don't take my 'experiences' as necessarily pointing to any sort of truth, just as I don't take others' experiences as necessarily pointing towards any sort of truth.

[Stranger]

I believe what I have said is that the linguistic framework of philosophy, religion and specifically y Christianity accommodates my experience.

And....?

I'm sure other people would say that their experience was accommodated by other religions or totally different explanations.

We still need some objective method to distinguish the truth.

All you have said is that you had an experience and then found it fitted with stuff you've read.

This is not an objective test.

[bluehillside Retd.]

SP,

Blue, because you are on a different 'channel' to Vlad.... you'll never see it his way.

That's true, inasmuch as my "wavelength" involves sifting with reason and logic the more probably true from the more probably not true.

Trollboy's wavelength on the other hand has no interest in those things - he just asserts as true whatever makes sense to him but is entirely indifferent to any sort of logical underpinning for it. Occasionally he'll allude vaguely to a "philosophical framework" he finds persuasive but he'll never tell us what it is, and then it's all relentless lying to redefine terms to suit his purpose, to mis-label the rest of us with positions of his own invention, to keep pushing at an open door that anything might be without ever even trying to get from a might be to an is, and to throw abuse at people who rightly find him to be both mendacious and ludicrous.

And that sadly ain't about to change any time soon I think.     

[Walt Zingmatilder]

SP,

That's true, inasmuch as my "wavelength" involves sifting with reason and logic.

Since when has belief in God equated with mental illness been reasonable and logical?

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

Since when has belief in God equated with mental illness been reasonable and logical?

Any chance of answers to 202 and 203?

Cheers

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Although I have said this before, I would like to repeat that I have had several 'experiences'. Each has been accompanied by a powerful feeling that there is no 'consciousness' in the universe at all. Strangely enough, the feelings engendered from these experiences have been quite liberating and quite humbling. However, I don't take my 'experiences' as necessarily pointing to any sort of truth, just as I don't take others' experiences as necessarily pointing towards any sort of truth.

I'm quite interested in the "Abyss" of existentialist thought. Would you say your experience equates with this?