Food for thought for Christians

[Leonard James]

I beg your pardon? Sounds like a threat to me. Believe what I do or your going to get you comeuppance. FFS

They can't help it, the desire to feel superior is too strong! 

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

Eh,
Re Jewish friend. Is he a convert or believing in the faith of his fathers?

He believes he has a deep experience of God. He is in no doubt about it.

You said there were several criteria which where fulfilled, I asked what they were.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

He believes he has a deep experience of God. He is in no doubt about it.

You said there were several criteria which where fulfilled, I asked what they were.

I'm happy for him.

It would be odd though for a divine experience to be centred around " not Jesus".....what would that make his experience. A point of doctrine .....or enjoyment of God?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

They can't help it, the desire to feel superior is too strong! 

Nope.........a meeting with God is not always initially an enjoyable thing as Isaiah, St Paul, Augustine, Bunyan, the rich man told to sell his belongings and others will tell you.

[jeremyp]

The reason I bring it up though is that there is an anti theist myth doing the rounds that there is no commonality in Christian experience and it is indeed a purely personal thing.

Is there? Can you provide links to examples?

I don't know anybody who denies there is some commonality of experience between Christians, but it is easily explained by the fact that the Bible exists and so do priests and missionaries. Christianity originated as a tiny sect in the Greco-Roman empire and yet every Christian alive today can trace the origin of their beliefs back to that seed. We have never come across a group of humans without previous contact with Christian Europe who independently came up with the same religion.

Who would be a Christian unless there was something in it that was more compelling?

What is more compelling than the promise of not dying when you die. It's an empty promise, of course, but people still believe it.

[jeremyp]

Dear Mods,

Translation please, and if our Leonard is having a pop, suspend his ass, not literally of course, Leonard might enjoy his ass being suspended

Gonnagle.

Google Translate is your friend

https://translate.google.com/#es/en/Ni%20hablar%20en%20absoluto%20qué%20va%2C%20y%20un%20cuerno%2C

Or speak at all what goes, and a horn,

I think that clears everything up.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

I'm happy for him.

It would be odd though for a divine experience to be centred around " not Jesus".....what would that make his experience. A point of doctrine .....or enjoyment of God?

He has an experience of God just as sincerely held as yours. You think a divine Jesus is involved in yours. In his there is no divine Jesus. One of you is wrong. That's why we need some way to confirm the reality of our experiences no matter how sincerely held.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Is there? Can you provide links to examples?

I don't know anybody who denies there is some commonality of experience between Christians, but it is easily explained by the fact that the Bible exists and so do priests and missionaries. Christianity originated as a tiny sect in the Greco-Roman empire and yet every Christian alive today can trace the origin of their beliefs back to that seed. We have never come across a group of humans without previous contact with Christian Europe who independently came up with the same religion.

What is more compelling than the promise of not dying when you die. It's an empty promise, of course, but people still believe it.

Yes but being Christian also been likened to sitting for the whole journey in the lifeboats on a luxury cruise.

I can also see the comfort of a life of doing whatever you can get away with and no ultimate comeback....if you catch my drift Jezzer.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

Yes but being Christian also been likened to sitting for the whole journey in the lifeboats on a luxury cruise.

I can also see the comfort of a life of doing whatever you can get away with and no ultimate comeback....if you catch my drift Jezzer.

So if you are not a Christian you automatically go through life doing whatever you can get away with?

[jeremyp]

Yes but being Christian also been likened to sitting for the whole journey in the lifeboats on a luxury cruise.

That's the first time I have ever heard that analogy.

I'm still trying to understand why you think it is relevant to my previous post.

I can also see the comfort of a life of doing whatever you can get away with and no ultimate comeback....if you catch my drift Jezzer.

I think you'd have to be a sociopath to enjoy such a life.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

He has an experience of God just as sincerely held as yours. You think a divine Jesus is involved in yours. In his there is no divine Jesus. One of you is wrong. That's why we need some way to confirm the reality of our experiences no matter how sincerely held.

Or we both might be right about Gods existence and one of us wrong about Jesus.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

That's the first time I have ever heard that analogy.

I'm still trying to understand why you think it is relevant to my previous post.
I think you'd have to be a sociopath to enjoy such a life.

How does it differ from what you believe then?

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

Or we both might be right about Gods existence and one of us wrong about Jesus.

You said in your experience that Jesus was pivotal.

religion and specifically y Christianity accommodates my experience

 So in your experience Jesus is divine in his, he is not. Either way it shows that experience is not an accurate guide to objective truth. If your experience of Jesus can be wrong so can your experience of God,

[Shaker]

Or we both might be right about Gods existence and one of us wrong about Jesus.

That's one option. There are, needless to say, others.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You said in your experience that Jesus was pivotal.
 So in your experience Jesus is divine in his he is not. Either way it shoes that experience is not an accurate guide. If your experience of Jesus can be wrong so can your experience of God,

He cannot experience a "not Jesus" as it were. If he has experienced a spiritual Jesus what is it about that experience that told him that Jesus is not divine?

[Shaker]

He cannot experience a "not Jesus" as it were. If he has experienced a spiritual Jesus

Is there another kind?

[jeremyp]

How does it differ from what you believe then?

I don't see any comfort in a life of doing what I want with no comeback. However, it is my conscience that makes me that way, not fear of eternal punishment by an imaginary god.

Now, are you ever going to answer any of the points I put to you Trollboy?

[Rhiannon]

That's the first time I have ever heard that analogy.

I'm still trying to understand why you think it is relevant to my previous post.
I think you'd have to be a sociopath to enjoy such a life.

I get the impression Vlad thinks some of us are sociopathic, Jeremy.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Shakes,

Is there another kind?

Well, there's Trolboy's kind - just deciding that your "experience" was God or Jesus when it was almost certainly nothing of the kind.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

He cannot experience a "not Jesus" as it were. If he has experienced a spiritual Jesus what is it about that experience that told him that Jesus is not divine?

He experienced the divine (in his view), Jesus plays no part in it. One Messiah at the end of it all.

He thinks you are mistaken based on his experience.

You think he is mistaken based on your experience.

One of you is wrong.

[jeremyp]

I get the impression Vlad thinks some of us are sociopathic, Jeremy.

No, he's just trying to paint us into a corner where we effectively say we are sociopaths. He's a deeply dishonest person.

[Shaker]

I get the impression Vlad thinks some of us are sociopathic, Jeremy.

On zero evidence (alleged personal experience doesn't cut the Colman's) he thinks every non-theist is a (I quote) "God-dodger" because he claims that he once was.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

He experienced the divine (in his view), Jesus plays no part in it. One Messiah at the end of it all.

Either way one of you is wrong.

Im not disagreeing with you.

[Enki]

The closest I can get to your experience is being in a room with phyletic ally organised biological specimen. I had a profound feeling of connectedness to a tree of life that went beyond the intellect.

I don't recognise that as being close at all to any of the 'experiences' I have had, and nor should I, because they have been all intensely subjective experiences. Even my wife accepts quite happily that she can't appreciate such experiences. However, thanks, for trying.

As I have already said, my experiences are just that, my experiences, and I certainly do not build my lack of belief upon them.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

Im not disagreeing with you.

So personal experience is no guide to objective truth then.