Abortion

[john]

Can we take the fuss about Donald Trump's comments up and run with them. I know there are people on this site on either side of the abortion issue and I am interested to hear what yaal have to say.

Trump said something like, women who have abortions should be jailed, although he later appears to back track.

I'm not talking about the legal position here in the UK but the "moral" viewpoint.

If abortion is wrong/illegal/immoral, who is to blame and what should be done to them? Is it the mother, the father or just the abortionist?   

[floo]

Trump is insane in my opinion, heaven help the world if he becomes president.

As for abortion, a woman should have the absolute right to terminate a pregnancy, for whatever reason, until the foetus is viable. Far better to try to avoid getting pregnant in the first place if she doesn't want a child.

[Hope]

If abortion is wrong/illegal/immoral, who is to blame and what should be done to them? Is it the mother, the father or just the abortionist?

Is abortion the issue or does it start far further back than that?  In my view there are very different types of abortion, some of which are valid and some not.  For instance, the most obvious type of 'valid' abortion is in a case where the continuation of the pregnancy puts the very life of the mother at risk.  Another, slightly less definitive case would be pregnancy following rape - some women choose to carry the child despite the memories that can engender. 

Unfortunately, abortion can be used as a way of avoiding responsibility for one's own actions.  Whether or not the result of that action is technically viable, I find this kind of abortion morally repugnant - as do many people - both men and women - I know. 

I've used this example before, but can't remember whether I've used it here or just on other forums.  A friend of ours was admitted to hospital some years ago for a D&C following a particularly traumatic miscarriage (her third in 5 years).  Now, the circumstances of the events that transpired left a lot of questions about ward and patient management, but it also begged questions about abortion in the first place.  At the opposite end of the ward was a 17-year old who was in for her 3rd abortion (the details were known because the lass was well known in the town - and not just for her fertility(!!); she was an extremely good musician who had given a number of public recitals before she was 12).  Perhaps the biggest question asked was to do with the father(s) of her potential children.  After all, whilst it is possible now to get treatment that uses donated sperm, is it likely that someone who has gone to all that effort and expense is then going to abort the result? 

I'm afraid that the law as it stands leaves everything on the head of the woman.  The man involved is rarely involved in the legal side of things (though he may have 'ordered' the woman to have an abortion in order to cover up his own failings).

[Hope]

Trump is insane in my opinion, heaven help the world if he becomes president.

I think "heaven help the world" whichever of the two front-runners becomes President - but that is sort of beside the point!!

As for abortion, a woman should have the absolute right to terminate a pregnancy, for whatever reason, until the foetus is viable. Far better to try to avoid getting pregnant in the first place if she doesn't want a child.

Your first and second sentences seem to be contradictory, Floo.  Surely, the prime right of a woman should be that she can choose not to become pregnant in the first place, but once the choice to act in a way that can produce a embryo has been made, the embryo takes precedent.

[floo]

I think "heaven help the world" whichever of the two front-runners becomes President - but that is sort of beside the point!!
Your first and second sentences seem to be contradictory, Floo.  Surely, the prime right of a woman should be that she can choose not to become pregnant in the first place, but once the choice to act in a way that can produce a embryo has been made, the embryo takes precedent.

Sometimes contraception fails, only one of my birth children was planned. But I decided to carry on with the pregnancies. However, if a woman definitely doesn't want a child, it is far better to terminate a pregnancy than bring an unwanted child into this world.

[Hope]

Sometimes contraception fails, only one of my birth children was planned. But I decided to carry on with the pregnancies. However, if a woman definitely doesn't want a child, it is far better to terminate a pregnancy than bring an unwanted child into this world.

Floo, I accept that contraception can fail - which is why one important element of 'contraception' is self-control!!

[Shaker]

Floo, I accept that contraception can fail - which is why one important element of 'contraception' is self-control!!

So contraception is fine albeit sometimes fallible, but in those cases where it fails, the woman shouldn't have been having sex in the first place.

Can you see anything wrong with this?

[john]

Yes but if the woman shouldn't have been having sex in the first place, should she be jailed Hopey?

[floo]

Floo, I accept that contraception can fail - which is why one important element of 'contraception' is self-control!!

What meaning don't have sex?

[Leonard James]

What meaning don't have sex?

I protest, yer 'onor!

[floo]

Some idiots think sex is for procreation only, but not for pleasure.

[SusanDoris]

Over fifty years, since the subject was actually talked about, I have noticed that those who would deny girls and women abortions have not been in that position themselves.

[Brownie]

Well said SusanDoris!  Or not had someone close to them, eg daughter, son's girlfriend, in that position.  It is amazing how attitudes change when that happens - I've actually witnessed that in a couple of friends who had previously been very anti-abortion and quite judgemental about people who had abortions.  What a difference when it was them or theirs in difficulty.

I don't think Hope was saying ''Don't have sex'';  that would hardly make sense for a married person to say.  So I don't actually understand what he meant by having self control.  Contraception does fail sometimes, no amount of self control would have prevented the pregnancy.  In many cases people often, or usually, do carry on and have a baby, if their circumstances are secure and they are well, they accept it and are quite happy when the baby is born.  However for some people an unplanned/unwanted pregnancy is a disaster - so what do they do then?

Who actually actually likes the idea of abortion?  I doubt there are many but it is a safety valve.  In the 'old days' the alternatives were often too terrible to contemplate.

[Udayana]

What is Trump's policy on the "morning after pill" ? Shouldn't numbers of abortions be falling rapidly since the availability of this pill ? - they aren't though.

[Brownie]

I looked up what Trump said as I hadn't heard it before (despite watching, or half watching, a programme about his presidential campaign last night):

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/trump-lewandowski-they-re-destroying-very-good-person-n548036

It seems that what he said, when pushed, was that if abortion was against the law, it should be punishable.  He didn't say it should be against the law, rather he said that he was ''pro-life with exceptions''.  Without reading it back I think he also said that 'the woman was the victim' in cases of unwanted pregnancy.

I don't know his views on the morning after pill and, like you, am surprised it hasn't stopped more abortions taking place.   Maybe people leave it too long, thinking they are safe.  Or hoping they are safe.

Found this, not about Trump but reflecting the opinions of many (not all) prominent Republicans.  It's from the New York Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/26/opinion/the-republican-conception-of-conception.html?_r=0

[Hope]

What meaning don't have sex?

In a way, yes.  Either take sufficient precautions to avoid the pregnancy in the first place - whilst individual methods of contrception have fail-rates, combining methods seem t have infinitesimal fail-rates - or be willing to accept the consequences that nature works with. 

Here again, I'd put the majority of blame on men, rater than women, since from what the various medical journals I've read over the years indicate (and remember I was involved in helping reorganise the library at the Nursing Campus in Pokhara for 3 years during the 90s, as well as having access to my wife's nursing magazines in the 90s and 00s) the real issue is the fact that men seem to assume that women will take all the precautions, rather than taking their fair share.

[Hope]

Some idiots think sex is for procreation only, but not for pleasure.

Whereas many ordinary people seem to think that it is only for pleasure and ignore the natural consequences that can occur.

[floo]

Whereas many ordinary people seem to think that it is only for pleasure and ignore the natural consequences that can occur.

It is only for pleasure if you don't want kids, or have finished procreating. As I have said many times there is NOTHING wrong with sexual activity, gay or straight, in an adult consensual relationship providing you are using proper precautions. Should a woman think she could have got pregnant by accident, there is always the morning after pill, which is better than an abortion.

[Harrowby Hall]

Whereas many ordinary people seem to think that it is only for pleasure and ignore the natural consequences that can occur.

Sexual behaviour in homo sapiens is very complex. It is possible to argue that if it is for pleasure then the natural consequence of coitus is pleasure.

Although biologically the role of sex is reproduction, it is difficult to argue that that is the primary purpose of sex in humans. There are many differences between human sex and that of other species. As a species, homo sapiens is relatively infertile - even where conception is sought and coitus takes place under favourable circumstances, conception may not occur. Ovulation is an event which is signalled in other species with specific and unmistakable signals from the females to receptive males. In some species females can retain and store sperm and release it at ovulation.

In homo sapiens ovulation is hidden - there may be signs that some women observe when they ovulate but by no means are all women necessarily aware of them and they are invisible to men. Coitus in humans is totally independent of fertility - there are many women for whom the post-menopausal stage of their lives are times of great sexual activity and fulfilment. If the primary purpose of coitus is reproduction then this activity is meaningless.

My own view of the biology of human sexuality is that it is related to the size of the human brain. A major difference between humans and other animals is that the human brain is very large and takes many years to grow. To accommodate this growth human offspring have a childhood that is very long - a dozen years or so to sexual capability and then a further period (adolescence) before final full maturity. For all this time, the young humans must be protected and cherished. This is more effectively accomplished if there are two parents involved. Without some incentive there would be nothing to keep the male parent from staying around.

The primary purpose of sex in homo sapiens is to maintain the pair bond by means of repeated reward, Hope  .....   by pleasure.

[Owlswing]

Is abortion the issue or does it start far further back than that?  In my view there are very different types of abortion, some of which are valid and some not.  For instance, the most obvious type of 'valid' abortion is in a case where the continuation of the pregnancy puts the very life of the mother at risk.  Another, slightly less definitive case would be pregnancy following rape - some women choose to carry the child despite the memories that can engender. 

Unfortunately, abortion can be used as a way of avoiding responsibility for one's own actions.  Whether or not the result of that action is technically viable, I find this kind of abortion morally repugnant - as do many people - both men and women - I know. 

I've used this example before, but can't remember whether I've used it here or just on other forums.  A friend of ours was admitted to hospital some years ago for a D&C following a particularly traumatic miscarriage (her third in 5 years).  Now, the circumstances of the events that transpired left a lot of questions about ward and patient management, but it also begged questions about abortion in the first place.  At the opposite end of the ward was a 17-year old who was in for her 3rd abortion (the details were known because the lass was well known in the town - and not just for her fertility(!!); she was an extremely good musician who had given a number of public recitals before she was 12).  Perhaps the biggest question asked was to do with the father(s) of her potential children.  After all, whilst it is possible now to get treatment that uses donated sperm, is it likely that someone who has gone to all that effort and expense is then going to abort the result? 

I'm afraid that the law as it stands leaves everything on the head of the woman.  The man involved is rarely involved in the legal side of things (though he may have 'ordered' the woman to have an abortion in order to cover up his own failings).

Hope, you like me, are, male and therefore, unless you are the father of the child, your opinions in the matter of abortion are of absolutely no consequence whatsoever, especially those based upon yout religious belief.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Hope, you like me, are, male and therefore, unless you are the father of the child, your opinions in the matter of abortion are of absolutely no consequence whatsoever, especially those based upon yout religious belief.

Frustratingly though, questions of what constitutes human life will always be with us.

[Owlswing]

Frustratingly though, questions of what constitutes human life will always be with us.

Frustrating only for those who think that they have more right to be part of the decision to abort than the mother.

[Bubbles]

Abortion is always a difficult one.

A foetus is a potential person and people who object to abortion try and draw attention to this.

Just because it isn't their body doesn't mean that the potential human shouldn't be represented, valued and another POV put forward.

I'm not actually anti - abortion, I think the ramifications of making it illegal are to extreme and in some cases I think it is necessary. ( usually medical ones). I wouldn't support prolife because I think they do more harm than good because every woman and her situation is unique.  They don't allow for individual cases.

On the other hand, I don't really agree with abortion because I think there are many steps that could have been taken to avoid getting pregnant in the first place, and as Floo points out there is the morning after pill.

Fortunately I've never needed to have one, I think though at the end of the day the choice has to be the woman's. It takes two to make a baby though so if she decides to keep it, the man should also have responsibilities.

I think banning it altogether is too inhumane, I don't like what I see in countries where it is banned, even if they do reckon it's allowed in extreme cases.

I suppose I disapprove of it on one level, but on another I recognise making it illegal has consequences I find unacceptable.

I suppose my veiw isn't " all or nothing"

Sometimes a woman needs to have an abortion and it's the only humane thing to do, making it illegal isn't acceptable IMO .

 

[Harrowby Hall]

My daughter lived in Japan for a few years and during that time entered a serious relationship with a Japanese man. She told me that when she decided to use oral contraceptive her boyfriend was horrified and raised an objection on the basis of the damage that pharmaceutical birth control would do to her body. Apparently, she said, abortion was the dominant method of birth control.

I have no idea whether or not the Japanese approach to abortion is really as casual as it appears from this account.

I think that abortion is a very serious and difficult business to negotiate. I do not like the prospect of casually destroying a potential life (particularly when I think of the joy my own children and grandchildren have given me) but I do respect the right of any woman to control her own fertility and to seek abortion. It should be the decision of the woman herself, the "rights" and opinions of other people who may be involved may be factors considered in her decision-making but not to have any determinating power.

I am horrified at the idea that any woman should be forced to carry to term any child she does not want...

... and the fact that fairy tale accounts of the world and of life should be the justification of forcing her into this action.

[Leonard James]

I am horrified at the idea that any woman should be forced to carry to term any child she does not want...

... and the fact that fairy tale accounts of the world and of life should be the justification of forcing her into this action.

A resounding hear, hear from me. Tragically, the religion touts will not  take their hands off their ears to hear it.