Abortion

[floo]

Can we take the fuss about Donald Trump's comments up and run with them. I know there are people on this site on either side of the abortion issue and I am interested to hear what yaal have to say.

Trump said something like, women who have abortions should be jailed, although he later appears to back track.

I'm not talking about the legal position here in the UK but the "moral" viewpoint.

If abortion is wrong/illegal/immoral, who is to blame and what should be done to them? Is it the mother, the father or just the abortionist?

All women should have the absolute right to an abortion before the foetus is viable. Far better done in the first few weeks of pregnancy if possible.

[Bubbles]

My daughter lived in Japan for a few years and during that time entered a serious relationship with a Japanese man. She told me that when she decided to use oral contraceptive her boyfriend was horrified and raised an objection on the basis of the damage that pharmaceutical birth control would do to her body. Apparently, she said, abortion was the dominant method of birth control.

I have no idea whether or not the Japanese approach to abortion is really as casual as it appears from this account.

I think that abortion is a very serious and difficult business to negotiate. I do not like the prospect of casually destroying a potential life (particularly when I think of the joy my own children and grandchildren have given me) but I do respect the right of any woman to control her own fertility and to seek abortion. It should be the decision of the woman herself, the "rights" and opinions of other people who may be involved may be factors considered in her decision-making but not to have any determinating power.

I am horrified at the idea that any woman should be forced to carry to term any child she does not want...

... and the fact that fairy tale accounts of the world and of life should be the justification of forcing her into this action.

I think it's when abortion becomes used instead of contraception that I object to.

An abortion isn't exactly good for your body.


Tbh I think if women regularly use abortion instead of taking precautions then they should be fined.

[floo]

I think it's when abortion becomes used instead of contraception that I object to.

An abortion isn't exactly good for your body.


Tbh I think if women regularly use abortion instead of taking precautions then they should be fined.

I agree, any woman using abortion as a means of contraception is crazy.

[Harrowby Hall]

I agree, any woman using abortion as a means of contraception is crazy.

I agree. I wonder whether the abortions I referred to in my comment about Japan are hormone injections (or similar) given during the first few weeks of pregnancy which cause the embryo to detach and be flushed out through the vagina, rather than some invasive physical act.

[Brownie]

A bit like the morning after pill, HH.  I understand that abortions performed in this country are now generally medical rather than surgical but years ago, they were always surgical.  It certainly seems drastic to use abortion as contraception when it isn't difficult for most people to avoid pregnancy.  There are methods other than the pill which are quite effective;  if a couple want to avoid having a baby, they generally manage.

[Hope]

Over fifty years, since the subject was actually talked about, I have noticed that those who would deny girls and women abortions have not been in that position themselves.

I've hear at least as much opposition from women as I have from men, Susan.

[Hope]

Lesdt anyone get concerned that poists have gone missing, please note that I have removed 2 posts that I've just posted because they were almost word for word what I'd written earlier in the thread - mostly in regard to the lack of acceptance of responsibility by men.

[floo]

Unfortunately, there are those who seem to think that it is only for the latter, with no consideration of the possibility of the former.

If you don't want kids, or you have completed your family, then you only have sex for pleasure, hopefully ensuring you are taking proper precautions to ensure you don't have anymore. I was sterilised at 26 as I didn't want any more birth children.

[Hope]

Hope, you like me, are, male and therefore, unless you are the father of the child, your opinions in the matter of abortion are of absolutely no consequence whatsoever, especially those based upon yout religious belief.

That, of course assumes that any of my opinions are based on religious thinking, and not on acceptance of responsibility for consequences.  As for the assumption that men have no right to an opinion in this issue, it is so pathetic a belief that I struggle to believe that even you would hold such a belief.  After all, women aren't wholly responsible for a pregnancy; unless through IVF or some other artificial means, there are always going to be two people who are responsible - a man and a woman and they BOTH need to take the responsibility for their actions.  Sadly, society seems happy to allow men to shrug off their side of that.

[Hope]

Frustrating only for those who think that they have more right to be part of the decision to abort than the mother.

I'd have thought that all members of society, of whichever gender, have both an equal right and equal duty to be involved in the debate.  Perhaps you want to place all the responsibility on the woman.

[Hope]

I wouldn't support prolife because I think they do more harm than good because every woman and her situation is unique.  They don't allow for individual cases.

Many do, Rose.  That is, in a way, the complicating issue as very few seem to want to ban it completely.

[floo]

I'd have thought that all members of society, of whichever gender, have both an equal right and equal duty to be involved in the debate.  Perhaps you want to place all the responsibility on the woman.

Whilst of course both men and women should take responsibility for safe sex, it is sadly the woman who bears the brunt when things go wrong.

[Hope]

A resounding hear, hear from me. Tragically, the religion touts will not  take their hands off their ears to hear it. 

Yet many of the 'religious touts' as you call them are the ones who are espousing a greater acceptance of responsibility of their actions by men.  Leaving the decision 100% to women simply excerbates this existing abdication of responsibility on the part of many men.

[Hope]

All women should have the absolute right to an abortion before the foetus is viable. Far better done in the first few weeks of pregnancy if possible.

And, of course, gives the man responsibility a huge 'get-out' provision if the responsibility is the woman's completely.  I've always understood you to argue that we all ought to accept responsibility for (and consequences of) our own actions, rather than handing them over to others.

[floo]

And, of course, gives the man responsibility a huge 'get-out' provision if the responsibility is the woman's completely.  I've always understood you to argue that we all ought to accept responsibility for (and consequences of) our own actions, rather than handing them over to others.

No man can tell a woman what to do with her body, even her spouse.

[Hope]

No man can tell a woman what to do with her body, even her spouse.

That assumes 'authority'; I'm talking about sharing responsibility and talking as equals.  I realise that society, despite its claims otherwise, tends to observe such a concept in word, as opposed to action.

[Brownie]

I certainly believe family planning should be the responsibility of both parties, Hope, but unfortunately it is often all left to the woman.  As the woman bears the child and, before that, carries it for nine months and then goes through labour, it's not unreasonable for women to feel that they should have the last word on the subject.   It's funny to think that not that many years ago no woman could be sterilised without her husband's agreement and the same applied to a married woman wanting an abortion.  Whilst it isn't a very nice idea for women to have terminations of pregnancy/sterilisation without their husbands knowing, some are desperate and we don't want to go back to the 'dark ages' when women risked their health, mentally and physically, and lived in dire poverty because they had to bear a child.

[Shaker]

I certainly believe family planning should be the responsibility of both parties, Hope, but unfortunately it is often all left to the woman.  As the woman bears the child and, before that, carries it for nine months and then goes through labour, it's not unreasonable for women to feel that they should have the last word on the subject.

This is pretty much exactly what I was going to say. Even in a first world nation in 2016 pregnancy is an often uncomfortable and can be a downright dangerous business. At the best of times it causes health issues which can be uncomfortable and unpleasant (mothers here - tell me that I'm factually incorrect in this statement!); at the worst of times it can be life-threatening. Although the rates nowadays are tiny (in absolute terms; even more so as compared to earlier historical periods) pregnancy and childbirth can still be fatal. It doesn't happen in the way that it used to but it still happens. That makes pregnancy-to-term a serious business.

It takes two people to make a baby; due to the exigencies of biology only one of those two people has to carry and give birth to the child. Like you, I think it's not at all unreasonable to expect the most directly interested party to have the lion's share of the say in what happens to their body. Or doesn't. There's no equality here. If it was as equal as choosing a new carpet or what takeaway to order it would be a different matter. It isn't.

[Owlswing]

That, of course assumes that any of my opinions are based on religious thinking, and not on acceptance of responsibility for consequences.  As for the assumption that men have no right to an opinion in this issue, it is so pathetic a belief that I struggle to believe that even you would hold such a belief.  After all, women aren't wholly responsible for a pregnancy; unless through IVF or some other artificial means, there are always going to be two people who are responsible - a man and a woman and they BOTH need to take the responsibility for their actions.  Sadly, society seems happy to allow men to shrug off their side of that.

Honestly Hope, your extremely selective blindness is beyond belief!

My post, which you quoted in full, states:

Hope, you like me, are, male and therefore, unless you are the father of the child, your opinions in the matter of abortion are of absolutely no consequence whatsoever.

Can you read it now?

[Owlswing]

I'd have thought that all members of society, of whichever gender, have both an equal right and equal duty to be involved in the debate.  Perhaps you want to place all the responsibility on the woman.

In the debate - yes.

In the case of a specific pregnant woman - NO!

[floo]

That assumes 'authority'; I'm talking about sharing responsibility and talking as equals.  I realise that society, despite its claims otherwise, tends to observe such a concept in word, as opposed to action.

Each person, male or female, must have authority over their own body.

[Hope]

Each person, male or female, must have authority over their own body.

All very well in a society where everyone is both individual and totally independent of all others - but thankfully we don't live a society where individuals are little islands on their own - yet.  What is more, men already tend to regard themselves as not requiring to take responsibility for others.  Do you really believe that reinforcing this attitude in this way is helpful to society?

[Hope]

In the debate - yes.

In the case of a specific pregnant woman - NO!

So, the debate is totally divorced from real life?  Are you suggesting that MPs, when debating - say - an education bill might just as well talk about the cost of rice?  Or when debating an NHS-related bill, they discuss who ought to be the next James Bond actor?

Debate about moral and ethical issues - such as abortion, divorce, marriage, even education and healthcare should not shy away from challenging the status quo, even if that means your hearing ideas that you disagree with.

[Owlswing]

So, the debate is totally divorced from real life?  Are you suggesting that MPs, when debating - say - an education bill might just as well talk about the cost of rice?  Or when debating an NHS-related bill, they discuss who ought to be the next James Bond actor?

Debate about moral and ethical issues - such as abortion, divorce, marriage, even education and healthcare should not shy away from challenging the status quo, even if that means your hearing ideas that you disagree with.

What a load of old bollox - your response has no connection to my post - and you know it! You always come up with this kind of diversionary misdirectional crap when you know that you are losing an argument.

[Hope]

Honestly Hope, your extremely selective blindness is beyond belief!

My post, which you quoted in full, states:

Hope, you like me, are, male and therefore, unless you are the father of the child, your opinions in the matter of abortion are of absolutely no consequence whatsoever.

Can you read it now?

Actually, I can and did read it, Owl.  I believe that you have (mischieviously and intentionally) left off the final section of your original post, which says " ..., especially those based upon yout religious belief".  Or are yo unable to read your own post?

As for whether or not 'you are the father of the child', that is a straw man argument.  If you think about it, few if any of the MPs who took part in the original abortion legislation debate - as wll as subsequent debates - has been the 'parent of the child'.  After all, since when was parliamentary debate based on an individual case; since when was a discussion on an internet forum based on a specific case?  Debates, of the sort we have here are wide-ranging and deal with principles not specific individuals (unless a poster actually invites opinions on such specifics - such as we see on some of the 'technology help' threads.)