Abortion

[Hope]

You always come up with this kind of diversionary misdirectional crap when you know that you are losing an argument.

You mean like you come up with the diversionary tactics of mischieviously and deliberately mis-quoting your own posts?

Grow up Owl and begin to smell the coffee.

[Owlswing]

Actually, I can and did read it, Owl.  I believe that you have (mischieviously and intentionally) left off the final section of your original post, which says " ..., especially those based upon yout religious belief".  Or are yo unable to read your own post?

As for whether or not 'you are the father of the child', that is a straw man argument.  If you think about it, few if any of the MPs who took part in the original abortion legislation debate - as wll as subsequent debates - has been the 'parent of the child'.  After all, since when was parliamentary debate based on an individual case; since when was a discussion on an internet forum based on a specific case?  Debates, of the sort we have here are wide-ranging and deal with principles not specific individuals (unless a poster actually invites opinions on such specifics - such as we see on some of the 'technology help' threads.)

I am talking personal relationships; you are introducing politics and any other crap to divert from your unwarranted intrusion for religious purposes in the personal lives of women.

When you come up with a comment that is apposite to the thread I will answer you, until then . . .

[Hope]

I am talking personal relationships; you are introducing politics and any other crap to divert from your unwarranted intrusion for religious purposes in the personal lives of women.

When you come up with a comment that is apposite to the thread I will answer you, until then . . .

Actually, I started off talking about human relationships and their importace to society when responding to Floo and a few others.  I then understood your posts to be taking us off down the political arena, so acquiesced with what I thought you wanted us to do.

As for 'unwarranted intrusion for religious purposes', it was you who introduced the religious elemnt into the debate, not me.  I can, of course, provide plenty of religious arguments as to why men and women ought to be living in harmonious relationship with each other, but hadn't made that leap till this post.

[floo]

Actually, I started off talking about human relationships and their importace to society when responding to Floo and a few others.  I then understood your posts to be taking us off down the political arena, so acquiesced with what I thought you wanted us to do.

As for 'unwarranted intrusion for religious purposes', it was you who introduced the religious elemnt into the debate, not me.  I can, of course, provide plenty of religious arguments as to why men and women ought to be living in harmonious relationship with each other, but hadn't made that leap till this post.

I wouldn't use the Bible as an example of harmonious relationships if I were you. Wasn't the sky fairy supposed to have got Mary in the family way when she was engaged to Joseph?

[Hope]

I wouldn't use the Bible as an example of harmonious relationships if I were you.

Are such stories and records necessarily intended to always be positive examples, Floo?  Negatives can be equally powerful as lessons.

Wasn't the sky fairy supposed to have got Mary in the family way when she was engaged to Joseph?

Don't know who or what you mean by the 'sky fairy', so I'm afraid that I can't answer this question.  It's a term that I've heard you suse before, but only you.  Is it some sort of 'Floo' family legend?

[john]

I use the term "SKY FAIRY" a lot too. It seems to me to be an appropriate phrase to describe a magical being who allegedly lives somewhere out there, who can do magic only some people can see.

[Leonard James]

I use the term "SKY FAIRY" a lot too. It seems to me to be an appropriate phrase to describe a magical being who allegedly lives somewhere out there, who can do magic only some people can see.

Quite! 

[Rhiannon]

Quite! 

It doesn't really work particularly well given what Christians actually believe. 'Imaginary friend' is a better one when used in relation to Jesus.

[floo]

Are such stories and records necessarily intended to always be positive examples, Floo?  Negatives can be equally powerful as lessons.
Don't know who or what you mean by the 'sky fairy', so I'm afraid that I can't answer this question.  It's a term that I've heard you suse before, but only you.  Is it some sort of 'Floo' family legend?

You don't have to be a genius to know I sometimes refer to god as the sky fairy!

[Humph Warden Bennett]

I don't think that we should take Mr T too seriously. By taking him seriously John has just smelled the Trump!

[Harrowby Hall]

You don't have to be a genius to know I sometimes refer to god as the sky fairy!

I think that because of the massed ranks of Cherubim and Seraphim and whatnot with wings on their backs, and his habit of demanding appropriate adoration he is the King of the Fairies (in the Sky).

[floo]

I think that because of the massed ranks of Cherubim and Seraphim and whatnot with wings on their backs, and his habit of demanding appropriate adoration he is the King of the Fairies (in the Sky).

Yep!

[Khatru]

Abortion is a subject that certainly seems to polarise people.

I find it hard to be black and white over this.  I think I'm more about greys.

Is a foetus a living human being?  Does it have a conscience?  Who knows?  Maybe an egg/sperm are also part of the development process.  Does that mean that birth control is murder?  It might sound ridiculous but how do you know for sure?

Would you force a woman who was raped and impregnated by her father, or a woman whose heart would blow out during labour, to deliver those babies? Wouldn't you think that abortion is justifiable or are there no circumstances in your view where an abortion is justifiable?

"Abortion" is one of those words we have used so frequently that I sometimes wonder whether it's lost its meaning.  Perhaps it's a euphemism for some kind of "right" or political "cause" instead of being the very private thing that it is.

I do think that it's lost its power to suggest what it means, the cessation of a life. I don't believe in a soul but there is living tissue and unlike a cancer which will reproduce one type of cell  in the wrong place, the human embryo has only one destiny...to become a human being that will become a benefit or a liability to its society.

So........I really think it's impossible to have a satisfactory answer to the abortion issue.

I'm no fan of killing and I don't think we can be certain that any foetus under a certain number of weeks old isn't alive.

Having said that, I also feel that a woman's body is her own and if she feels it in her best interests to have an abortion then she should be provided with safe, supportive and non-judgmental advice and guidance.  This, of course, means leaving spiritual "guidance" out of it.  Well, for those that don't want spiritual guidance, anyway.

[Rhiannon]

It's not a debate that I wade into very often simply because it is so personal, so individual. I've never had a termination but I have had three children and from very early on I knew I was carrying a new life, even though at the stage I also knew it was a life that could just fade away very quickly. Had I not wanted those pregnancies to proceed maybe I would have viewed it differently. After all we allow termination of foetuses that are of the same gestation as babies that are afforded burials as stillbirths. This suggests that we've now reached s point where we react with as much compassion as we can to the individual.

I know how risky pregnancy and birth are - I had to go through emergency surgery - and for that reason alone no woman should ever have to go through a pregnancy that she doesn't want. At the same time I do feel for men who want pregnancies to proceed when the woman doesn't and has a termination anyway. And I know some women are forced into terminations by abusive partners or misguided parents and that distresses me.

The potential for getting it wrong is huge and there is moral confusion aplenty. But I think we make the best of it most of the time, given how complex it is.

[Shaker]

It doesn't really work particularly well given what Christians actually believe. 'Imaginary friend' is a better one when used in relation to Jesus.

A.N. Wilson actually wrote as much in one of his novels (The Vicar of Sorrows - well worth reading), although he has changed his mind for a third time since.

[Brownie]

I haven't read that, Shaker.  I remember reading A N Wilson in the late nineties, he was very popular at that time.  There was one book I read about St Paul which was awful, imo.  Other things I read by him always gave me the impression that he was a bit seedy.

I felt quite moved by what both Khatru and Rhiannon wrote, above.  Abortion really is a quite difficult subject, I doubt many take the step lightly but I am glad we are allowed to have them in this country.

[Rhiannon]

Yes, it would be far worse for us not to have them as we do. Abortion rights are very important. But it is a very complex issue. And most women who have terminations do know that, and still have them anyway.

[floo]

I haven't read that, Shaker.  I remember reading A N Wilson in the late nineties, he was very popular at that time.  There was one book I read about St Paul which was awful, imo.  Other things I read by him always gave me the impression that he was a bit seedy.

I felt quite moved by what both Khatru and Rhiannon wrote, above.  Abortion really is a quite difficult subject, I doubt many take the step lightly but I am glad we are allowed to have them in this country.

I also doubt too many women would undergo an abortion lightly.

[Dicky Underpants]

I haven't read that, Shaker.  I remember reading A N Wilson in the late nineties, he was very popular at that time.  There was one book I read about St Paul which was awful, imo.  Other things I read by him always gave me the impression that he was a bit seedy.

"The old fogey as Platonic Guardian". Actually, I quite liked the Paul book - gave me a less jaundiced opinion of him (perhaps Floo should give it a try )

Back to the matter in hand.....

[Dicky Underpants]

It's not a debate that I wade into very often simply because it is so personal, so individual. I've never had a termination but I have had three children and from very early on I knew I was carrying a new life, even though at the stage I also knew it was a life that could just fade away very quickly.

This is where the Catholic Church starts to argue philosophy about 'ensoulment' and the question of where individuality begins. The position has changed since Thomas Aquinas. Most of these arguments have been developed by men, and I think that when it comes to laying down the law about such things, this is the time that men, and Catholic priests in particular, should shut the fuck up. Any comments I make here are otherwise offered with a degree of diffidence.

[Brownie]

The thing about abortion is that some people pontificate about it - including plenty of women - but change their minds very quickly if they or theirs are in a spot.  I can think of two women, my age, both Christian, who had abortions.  They didn't really want to but one would have had to cope with a baby on her own and felt she couldn't and the other did it because she was frightened of her mum.  I also know another woman who wanted her daughter to have one, she was furious about the girl being pregnant, but it was too late for that and the baby was born (of course, all the drama ended then and the attention was on the baby).

I honestly think some people cannot put themselves into anyone else's shoes, or else they come up with examples of people who manage quite well with an unplanned baby which is not helpful.

There was a case recently in Northern Ireland where a young woman faced prosecution for procuring her own abortion - she bought the abortion pills online.  Someone grassed her up, shame on them.  I couldn't believe it went to court, what was the point?  I also didn't realise the law hadn't changed there, thought it was the same as here.

[Shaker]

There was a case recently in Northern Ireland where a young woman faced prosecution for procuring her own abortion - she bought the abortion pills online.  Someone grassed her up, shame on them.

I remember that - it was only a few weeks ago. The most disgraceful aspect of the case is that the poor young woman was shopped by alleged 'friends.'

I couldn't believe it went to court, what was the point?  I also didn't realise the law hadn't changed there, thought it was the same as here.

Nope. Those kinds of things are devolved to the NI Assembly - which is why NI is the only place in the British Isles (never mind the UK) without equal marriage.

[Brownie]

She was prosecuted at 21 and given a one year suspended sentence, but she aborted aged 19.  It was her housemates who shopped her and I suppose they may not have been 'friends' but I do not know what they hoped to achieve.  I would have thought, even those who are against abortion, wouldn't report someone to the police.  That is totally lacking in any kindness.

I hope we don't hear of anything like that happening again.

[Bubbles]

The thing about abortion is that some people pontificate about it - including plenty of women - but change their minds very quickly if they or theirs are in a spot.  I can think of two women, my age, both Christian, who had abortions.  They didn't really want to but one would have had to cope with a baby on her own and felt she couldn't and the other did it because she was frightened of her mum.  I also know another woman who wanted her daughter to have one, she was furious about the girl being pregnant, but it was too late for that and the baby was born (of course, all the drama ended then and the attention was on the baby).

I honestly think some people cannot put themselves into anyone else's shoes, or else they come up with examples of people who manage quite well with an unplanned baby which is not helpful.

There was a case recently in Northern Ireland where a young woman faced prosecution for procuring her own abortion - she bought the abortion pills online.  Someone grassed her up, shame on them.  I couldn't believe it went to court, what was the point?  I also didn't realise the law hadn't changed there, thought it was the same as here.

Yes there is another one now where a mother is facing jail after helping her daughter.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/second-northern-irish-woman-to-stand-trial-on-abortion-charges-a6972726.html

[Bubbles]

Amazingly Marie Stopes has a website and base in Belfast or at least a tel number ( special tab on website for Irish women)

https://www.mariestopes.org.uk/women/abortion/nhs-and-private-abortion-treatment-clinics-london?gclid=CMXKn_ees8wCFbYK0wodtOwFQg

It claims to help and support  Irish women who want an abortion.

I'm surprised the law in NI  hasn't come down on them too, considering what they are doing can't be that different to the mother that got jailed.

I'm not sure how that works, they come to London for it, then get arrested when they go home?