Appeal to lurkers

[Hope]

Have you come up with a methodology (any objective methodology, not necessarily 'naturalistic') to determine the truth of your particular god as opposed to all the others or none?

We keep asking, you keep evading.

Until you (or some other theist) does, it is quite clear whose arses are being kicked...

I and others have come up wth plenty of methodologies - only to have them dismissed because they don't satisfy the physical, naturalistic requirements of many here.  One example, of course, is of heling, which is shot down and explained away by reference to some other sort of 'magic' that in itself has no scientific validity.

[Hope]

But none of that was or is in any way beyond a natural world of matter-energy in the way that you keep touting.

You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to disagree with you. 

[Shaker]

You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to disagree with you.

But you have no basis for your opinion. We know this because you've been asked umpteen times by umpteen different posters over many months and although you claim that you've shown a methodology elsewhere (and claim that it "flummoxed" people ), you won't do it here or provide a link to the alleged other place.

[Shaker]

I and others have come up wth plenty of methodologies

Where? Not here that's for sure.

Your claims of having done so elsewhere count for nothing if you're unable to point us in the right direction with a URL or two.

Without that, the claim to have provided such a methodology is yet another example of one of those things that starts with an 'ass-' ... and pretty well ends there, come to that.

only to have them dismissed because they don't satisfy the physical, naturalistic requirements of many here.

As you've been told many times, this so-called methodology doesn't have to be naturalistic, it just has to be objective and capable of testing claims so that their truth or falsity can be ascertained and not, as is your wont, merely asserted.

One example, of course, is of heling, which is shot down and explained away by reference to some other sort of 'magic' that in itself has no scientific validity.

I don't know whether this is a brazen lie or sheer ignorance. I posted a link to a BBC article on spontaneous healing a couple of months ago; I posted the link for a second time more recently when the subject cropped up again, so there's no excuse for not having seen it.

The word 'magic' at no point appears in the article. Quite a bit is already known about spontaneous healing, so much so that there's plenty to go on in terms of future research.

[Sassy]

Unfortunately for you, Sass, your right is everybody else's wrong ... and no matter how loud you shout you can't change that.

So let's test that...

I believe that it is right to teach others that being a paedophile is bad thing.
So that is wrong to everyone else, is it?
I believe that it is right to treat everyone the same regardless of creed, religion, colour or sexuality... so that is everyone else's wrong?

If I shout then it doesn't have to be loud or anything else for that matter to be right.
But when you speak the simpliest of test shows you to be completely wrong.

So why make statements that come back to bite your behind?
We both know why you left God and it wasn't about losing your faith. Losing your faith was about appeasing your own conscience. A little like the Ostrich sticking it's head in the sand.

Smell the coffee...

[Sassy]

If we go around asserting our subjective pagan beliefs as universally true for everyone without a shred of evidence to back that up then we'll deserve getting it with both barrels.

That is the problem.. whether universal or not - pagan beliefs hold NO TRUTH. There is no evidence required to back anything up because the beliefs have no merit, purpose or value to mankind.

[Sassy]

Dear Vlad,

It's good but it's not Carling

Gonnagle.

It would take more than Heineken to refresh the faith that only God can reach within you.
You have fallen away Gonnagle you have left the path. Seek the LORD whilst he may still be found.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

I and others have come up wth plenty of methodologies - only to have them dismissed because they don't satisfy the physical, naturalistic requirements of many here.  One example, of course, is of heling, which is shot down and explained away by reference to some other sort of 'magic' that in itself has no scientific validity.

I don't know how you can have the bare faced cheek to say this.

I have never ever ever insisted that a methodology should be naturalistic. just that we should be able to tell what is objectively true from what isn't.

OK then you want to use healing as an example.

Give us a specific example with an accompanying method which shows the example to have non naturalistic origins?

[floo]

I and others have come up wth plenty of methodologies - only to have them dismissed because they don't satisfy the physical, naturalistic requirements of many here.  One example, of course, is of heling, which is shot down and explained away by reference to some other sort of 'magic' that in itself has no scientific validity.

Your way of seeing it always begs the question why does the sky fairy only 'heal' when in the mood?

[Stranger]

I and others have come up wth plenty of methodologies...

Where?

...only to have them dismissed because they don't satisfy the physical, naturalistic requirements of many here.

I have seen no such dismissals and plenty of people telling you that any methodology that produces objective results will do.

One example, of course, is of [healing], which is shot down and explained away by reference to some other sort of 'magic' that in itself has no scientific validity.

If there was a definite pattern of 'miraculous' healing if and only if there was prayer to your god then that would indeed be a strong piece of evidence.

But there isn't.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Stephano,

Are we still appealing to lurkers maybe lurkers is the wrong word, what about silent viewers, hey!! Silent viewers come and voice your opinions, all are welcome, we even welcome Tories

Gonnagle.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

Dear Stephano,

Are we still appealing to lurkers maybe lurkers is the wrong word, what about silent viewers, hey!! Silent viewers come and voice your opinions, all are welcome, we even welcome Tories

Gonnagle.

Hi,

Yes your wording does seem a bit more welcoming.

Not sure about the Tories thought. You can go too far!:)

[jeremyp]

............or, unlike you Jeremy they have a life.

And by "you" of course you mean "us".

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Then what would be the point of this forum?

I thought the point of the forum was for different people from different walks of life to discuss philosophical ideas, concepts, beliefs or issues (involving a deity or not) that were meaningful to them - or as some people like to put it "true for them" and to gain an understanding of other perspectives based on those discussions.

If it is meaningful to atheists to use the forum to try to convince theists to adopt an atheist perspective or vice versa - great - that's the point - an exchange of ideas. It's kind of irrelevant whether anyone is actually persuaded by anyone else's argument or not so long as conversations continue, when time permits. The mods are there to cool things down when some people get a bit over-excited.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

And by "you" of course you mean "us".

You are like my antitheist twin.

[Jack Knave]

I thought the point of the forum was for different people from different walks of life to discuss philosophical ideas, concepts, beliefs or issues (involving a deity or not) that were meaningful to them - or as some people like to put it "true for them" and to gain an understanding of other perspectives based on those discussions.

If it is meaningful to atheists to use the forum to try to convince theists to adopt an atheist perspective or vice versa - great - that's the point - an exchange of ideas. It's kind of irrelevant whether anyone is actually persuaded by anyone else's argument or not so long as conversations continue, when time permits. The mods are there to cool things down when some people get a bit over-excited.

What you may have missed from another post of mine was that what I was saying was is that it seems as if many of the theists are leaving this forum and those few who are joining are atheists. If it ends up as being pretty much all atheists then what is the point of it, with regards to its original purpose?

I have to admit that since the political section was added it has improved my enjoyment of this forum. The science bit has also added a to this a little.

[Owlswing]

Hi,

Yes your wording does seem a bit more welcoming.

Not sure about the Tories thought. You can go too far!:)

. . . or any politician of any persuasion!

[~TW~]

This goes out to anyone who looks in on this forum but hasn't yet joined.

I have to say that I have no regrets on starting posting a few weeks ago.

So come on in the water is lovely, whatever your opinion or views might be.

Hello Stephen this forum is dead I have looked in and may look back  in 3 months from now 99.9% seem to be Hell bound plonkers united.

   ~TW~

[Brownie]

Your way of seeing it always begs the question why does the sky fairy only 'heal' when in the mood?

Remember the Biblical story of the person lowered through the roof to see Jesus because it was otherwise difficult to gain entry.  Jesus looked not only at the sick person but at the faith of his friends.[/i

I don't have a problem with the fact that not everyone who asks is cured ('healing' doesn't always mean curing), it's a fact that we will be ill and eventually we will die, regardless of faith.  However I do not think it depends on the mood of God.

[Sebastian Toe]

Hello Stephen this forum is dead I have looked in and may look back  in 3 months from now 99.9% seem to be Hell bound plonkers united.

   ~TW~

Arse.

[Owlswing]

Arse.

You really rate ~TW~ that highly?

[Sassy]

Why should atheists be concerned with healing as they are not concerned about dying.

I get the feeling they pick arguments for arguments sake. They don't want to learn and do not want to be healed and so may be they have the answer to why some are healed and some are not.

May be some Christians want more than their healing.
When a man brought to Jesus for healing it was clear to Jesus that his man wanted something more than physical healing.

2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

The reaction and the result...

3 And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.

4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?

6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

7 And he arose, and departed to his house.

In life those who come to know Christ and believe God sent him are saved.
The man never told him it was his sins which he wanted forgiven. The mind of the man was more concerned with his sin that his sickness. From Christ he received both.

We all will die one day. But I believe it is Gods will for people to be healthy whilst alive.
Who knows why some die and some healed. But they have all been able to receive the healing and walk the way.

Whilst here do the atheists fear sickness or death? It would appear not.
Paul wanted to cast off this mortal coil to be with the Lord Jesus but decided he was needed here more at the time.

Christians have a hope that lives by sickness and disease that leads to life after death.
Knowing when they cross they will have no knowledge of the time spent asleep for they will pass to Christ and the resurrection day. As they close their eyes to sleep here, they will awaken to the trumpet sound and the return of Christ. They will receive that which they hope for in Jesus Christ.

The believers have something more powerful than death. The resurrection promise through the blood of Christ.
Whilst in the body here they are away from the LORD. But when they leave their body here they are with the LORD.

Christ told them... "Fear not them which kill the body...rather fear God who after death has the power to throw both body and soul into hell."

What is it with all the arguments about healing with the atheists?

[Shaker]

What is it with all the arguments about healing with the atheists?

It's to highlight the wretchedly flawed/horribly fallacious/just generally terrible arguments that believers in magical healing use.

[Brownie]

I thought the point of the forum was for different people from different walks of life to discuss philosophical ideas, concepts, beliefs or issues (involving a deity or not) that were meaningful to them - or as some people like to put it "true for them" and to gain an understanding of other perspectives based on those discussions.

If it is meaningful to atheists to use the forum to try to convince theists to adopt an atheist perspective or vice versa - great - that's the point - an exchange of ideas. It's kind of irrelevant whether anyone is actually persuaded by anyone else's argument or not so long as conversations continue, when time permits. The mods are there to cool things down when some people get a bit over-excited.

I agree that that is the point of this forum and it is that precisely which sets the forum apart from others that many of us here have posted on in the past.
I don't come on here to preach or try to convert and I wouldn't like anyone to do that to me but it is interesting to hear what others believe.

[john]

I thought the point of the forum was for different people from different walks of life to discuss philosophical ideas, concepts, beliefs or issues (involving a deity or not) that were meaningful to them - or as some people like to put it "true for them" and to gain an understanding of other perspectives based on those discussions.

If it is meaningful to atheists to use the forum to try to convince theists to adopt an atheist perspective or vice versa - great - that's the point - an exchange of ideas. It's kind of irrelevant whether anyone is actually persuaded by anyone else's argument or not so long as conversations continue, when time permits. The mods are there to cool things down when some people get a bit over-excited.

Well said Gabriella...

Although I don't particularly want to convert anyone, Just try to understand their thinking.

There are some very interesting people here, yourself included, I enjoy but am frequently amazed at what they have to say. Sometimes I throw a prompt in too.

Keep up the discussions peeps.