If Jesus did come back would you want to kill him?

[wigginhall]

Personally I favour the idea that the story of the Gaderene Swine was a satirical reference to a Roman legion, possibly even the Tenth Fratensis. It would have been intended to give hope to Christians that Jesus - and by association his followers - would be triumphant over the Roman occupation.

And yet some two thousand years later apparently educated people believe it should be taken literally and that it really did happen.

Yes, some scholars take it as a joke.  Points in favour of it are that X Legio Fretensis used a boar as one of their standards, and they were based around Jerusalem, so the idea is that local Jews would see pigs as a ref to them.   There is supposed to be a church somewhere with X  LEG FRE stamped into the wall, and also pottery has been found with X LEG F on it. 

I guess we'll never know if it was a joke.   The legion had an amazing history - they fought against Mark Antony, and defeated him at sea.   And I think they took part in the later Jewish wars, and were pretty ruthless.

Actually, I checked and that church has VEXILLATIO LEG X FRE on the wall, and vexillatio means detachment, I think.  Wow, I would love to see that.

[wigginhall]

I forgot the other clue, one of the demons says 'my name is Legion', although of course this could mean many.

[Rhiannon]

And I think the evidence is that pigs were not kept in vast herds - certainly not by the thousand.

[floo]

And I think the evidence is that pigs were not kept in vast herds - certainly not by the thousand.

One or a million, the fact remains it was needless cruelty on the part of Jesus if the story is true.

[Rhiannon]

One or a million, the fact remains it was needless cruelty on the part of Jesus if the story is true.

That wasn't my point, Floo.

[wigginhall]

And I think the evidence is that pigs were not kept in vast herds - certainly not by the thousand.

I've found that people don't want to think that there could be jokes in the Gospels.  This is true also of some atheists, not sure why.   I suppose literalism casts a long shadow. 

[floo]

I've found that people don't want to think that there could be jokes in the Gospels.  This is true also of some atheists, not sure why.   I suppose literalism casts a long shadow.

And the joke is?

[Rhiannon]

I've found that people don't want to think that there could be jokes in the Gospels.  This is true also of some atheists, not sure why.   I suppose literalism casts a long shadow.

Yes, it kind of turns on its head what the Bible is for.

[Rhiannon]

And the joke is?

That after 2000 years anyone thinks it was all supposed to be taken literally?

[wigginhall]

And the joke is?

Well, it's not a hilarious joke, it's the idea that the Romans are pigs, (they carry the sign of the pig on their standard), and wouldn't it be a laugh if they were all driven over a cliff, and they're demonic anyway. 

[Rhiannon]

Yeah, you can see why Mark hasn't gone down as one of the great stand-ups of ancient times.

[floo]

That after 2000 years anyone thinks it was all supposed to be taken literally?

Frightening pigs over a cliff, might or might not be true, who knows?

[wigginhall]

Yeah, you can see why Mark hasn't gone down as one of the great stand-ups of ancient times.

It could also be a joke with an edge, 'you know those Romans, we all hate them, don't we?  (Crowd groan in sympathy).  Well, how about we fill them with demons and throw them over the cliff?'  Crowd cheer, meanwhile keeping an eye open for X Leg Fret, who don't like the piss taken out of them. 

It's plausible if we accept that parts of the Gospels came out of oral stuff, passed around.  But it's a guess really.

[Rhiannon]

Well it would have to be hidden, wouldn't it? Too dangerous to make the joke too obvious. But I agree, I think it was there to stir up feeling.

Discussing this always reminds me of Lister and the religion of the cat people in Red Dwarf.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Yeah, you can see why Mark hasn't gone down as one of the great stand-ups of ancient times.

Marcus Brigstocius antitheistus comicus unfunnicus

[Jack Knave]

Assume for now that the Big Fella finally showed up a second time around, would you want to kill him?

No point, he would just pop right up again 3 days later.

[Owlswing]

If Jesus behaved towards Pagans and atheists like Sassy implies he wouldn't be perfect.

Thanks, Rose.

I'm glad that i am not the only one who noticed this.

[Owlswing]

I've read them plenty of times, and can't say that I've notice that 'the guy was far from perfect'.

Yeah, but then we are not all as blinded by hero worship as you.

[Hope]

Yeah, but then we are not all as blinded by hero worship as you.

I don't regard him as a hero; I regard him as God in human form.

[Shaker]

I don't regard him as a hero; I regard him as God in human form.

So completely different in every way, then

[ippy]

Threads like this make me somewhat sympathetic to the various Christians complaining that it's a bit clique(y) with a hint of having to pass the tough kids smoking and about to ask you for your dinner money. And I know the type of mockery goes on on other boards on here but there is a responsibility that needs to be taken if atheists are in the majority on the boards to at least attempt not to use that in simply empty mockery.


It's not really enough to say you wouldn't do it to the pagan because they don't tell you it's true for you too. There are plenty of Christians on here who have an admirably live and let live approach, who often challenge their fellow Christians and theists on those sort of attitudes. Maybe instead of Beavus and Butthead approach to them, we could drag ourselves into an attempt at dialogue.

N S, you it seems to me, can't see how ludicrous religious belief or faith appears to be to a large number of people referred to as atheists.

ippy

[Dicky Underpants]

The probloem with the idea that "It would have been intended to give hope to Christians that Jesus - and by association his followers - would be triumphant over the Roman occupation" is that by this stage, Jesus had already taught that he wasn't here to overthrow the Romans but had a far wider remit to fulfil.  If yoiu can come up with a metaphorical meaning that takes that existing teaching into account, I'd be happy to hear it.

I suppose that if you believe that the texts of the gospels are all arranged in chronological order of Jesus' sayings and doings, and that he said and did everything recorded there, then that would be a likely conclusion. However....

[Owlswing]

I don't regard him as a hero; I regard him as God in human form.

Your God was the "hero" I was saying that you worship!

[bluehillside Retd.]

Hi all. Apologies for starting a thread and appearing to ignore it for so long. I've actually been locked out of this site for no good reason, and this morning "Some" very kindly suggested a workaround using a proxy site that's actually worked.

NS - I fundamentally disagree with you here. There are various potential issues that could be discussed that have nothing to do with just poking the christians:

- "If you meet a Buddha on the road, kill him" is an old saw, variously interpreted. One is that if you did meet a perfect being on your journey then necessarily you cannot know him to be perfect so you should destroy him (or the idea of perfection) and continue the journey.

- If, say, a 90-year-old on his deathbed said, "by the way, I found the cure for cancer 60 years ago but kept it to myself" I suspect many would want to have a few words.

- If you seriously think that a man/god Jesus was real then surely you'd be curious at least about why he took so long in human history to show up at all, about why he didn't fix it so innocents didn't die when he did finally show up the first time, why he sat on his hands and watched so many blameless people suffer horribly over the last 2,000 years etc.

Wouldn't you?

[Owlswing]

If you seriously think that a man/god Jesus was real then surely you'd be curious at least about why he took so long in human history to show up at all, about why he didn't fix it so innocents didn't die when he did finally show up the first time, why he sat on his hands and watched so many blameless people suffer horribly over the last 2,000 years etc.

Wouldn't you?

No argument with that statement here.