Experiences

[Bubbles]

Yes ... but if that's what they think is right, why shouldn't they?

Both personally and as a society some kind of objectives need to be laid down. The "path" and the experiences along it may lead to heaven or hell or nowhere at all, but we're still on it.

  because they persecute the infidel ? 

People should be able to believe what they want, until they start hurting someone with it.

Other people " the infidel" are also allowed to believe what they do, preferably in peace.

Nasty religious nutters who stab shopkeepers just because they believe something different ( just as an example) need to be dealt with very firmly.

No amount of violence and hurting others is going to prove their POV, if anything, it discredits them.


I'm ok with egos until they start harming others.

I think you need a healthy ego to cope with life's knocks.

I think there is a balance to be had.

[Udayana]

Yes, Rose, Great. But obviously you are not looking at it from their pov!

As you say some kind of balance could be found.

My main point was really to Ekim - contrasting the spiritual "ego" free path from the ego led worldly path - it's not really a case of one or the other.

[ekim]

Yes ... but if that's what they think is right, why shouldn't they?

Both personally and as a society some kind of objectives need to be laid down. The "path" and the experiences along it may lead to heaven or hell or nowhere at all, but we're still on it.

I would suggest that from the point of view of the mystic, your question would imply that they only think it is right.  They don't know, and they export their ignorance and impose it upon others.  This is the nature of the spiritual ego/self, or I guess any ego/self, it seeks to impose self will.  Jihad is struggle and a mystic would see it as a personal inner struggle whereas those who have failed with the inner struggle will blame it on others and seek support from the like minded for the kind of violent outer jihad we see today and so the collective religious ego is strengthened.

[Dicky Underpants]

Dear Dickie,

 
The floor is yours, tell me all about stripping away the "wow".

Gonnagle.

Gonners

Speaking of the western religious tradition which has influenced all of us to a greater or lesser extent (even Ippy ), I think there are a few things which could be pared away to start with:
Jesus walked on water
Jesus fed the 5000 (and 4000)
Jesus died for our sins
Jesus rose from the dead (literally)
Jesus was God incarnate

There are other ways of looking at these assertions, if one wishes to salvage something from the Christian tradition (starting with clever coves like D.F. Strauss)

I've nothing against the courageous wandering preacher who gave a bit of a new slant on Judaism (following his precepts might indeed be a way to "have life abundantly" - Schweitzer thought so, and he lived in a fairly abundant way).
However, most believers in the Christian world today, and probably most on this board can't do without the 'carrots'. No doubt quite a few want to insist on the 'sticks' as well, because they sure want to see them pesky atheists getting what's good for 'em - for ever and ever, preferably.

[Dicky Underpants]

because they persecute the infidel ? 

People should be able to believe what they want, until they start hurting someone with it.

Other people " the infidel" are also allowed to believe what they do, preferably in peace.

Nasty religious nutters who stab shopkeepers just because they believe something different ( just as an example) need to be dealt with very firmly.

No amount of violence and hurting others is going to prove their POV, if anything, it discredits them.


I'm ok with egos until they start harming others.

I think you need a healthy ego to cope with life's knocks.

I think there is a balance to be had.

Just like to say I've liked most of your comments on this thread so far.

[Dicky Underpants]

Certainly had experiences of this nature (all too few, alas!), mostly (though not exclusively) connected with prolonged meditation, which has waxed and waned over the years but used to be pretty intensive at various stages of my life.

In Buddhist meditation they're a well-known pitfall - not that there's anything inherently wrong about such experiences (who doesn't like feeling absolutely indescribably amazing?), save that some people (perfectly naturally, for the most understandable of reasons) chase after them and think that if meditation can produce such lovely blissful experiences, as it can, then that's something to run after and make the point of meditating at all, which is just another form of attachment or clinging. This is completely contrary to the spirit of meditation and all wise teachers are alert to this: by all means enjoy the experiences as they're lovely - just don't cling on to them and make them all about meditation. They're nice, but a passing show - observe, but don't get involved.

Hi Shaker

I got the impression from what you'd said earlier that you were something of a stranger to this sort of thing. I found your reference to 'wise teachers' a bit of a surprise too, though I knew you were more sympathetic to Buddhism than Christianity.
My disillusion with Buddhism came as a result of a number of pundits insisting that Zen was somehow the culmination of Buddhist thought and practice (I've  a feeling wiggi still thinks this). Zen seems to want to do away with 'intention' altogether, ending up with saying "don't seek for enlightenment, for it will elude you". Which ends up by encouraging you "when you sit, just sit" etc.

I'm pretty sure there is no such thing as 'enlightenment' anyway, though no doubt certain 'highs' (Satoris) are available in any form of human experience (Maslow's research). However, there are a few admonitions from religious traditions which talk sense, by simply advocating that people try to purify their 'intentions': don't seek for magical powers (or power in any sense), don't seek for wonders, don't go for self-development (Yoga can often be nothing more than a vehicle for this).
However, the idea of doing away with 'intention' altogether is, I think, nonsense. Koestler analysed this brilliantly in his selection of essays "The Lotus and the Robot", where he demolished much of the gobbledegook perpetrated by Zen pundits. This hasn't stopped Zen 'dojos' being set up by the score throughout Europe, where people go to extreme lengths to practise to the letter aspects of Japanese religious culture (I've been to a few), with the most effortful 'intent' and precision, in order to learn that '"there is nothing to be gained". Better to just go for a country walk, do some gardening, fly a kite, whatever....

[wigginhall]

Zen is complicated, but one summary of it is, 'no path'.   Or, if you like, letting go.   However, to let go, you might need to try first of all!  Then you can stop. 

I think it's true that going for a long walk can achieve the same thing, i.e. an effortless state. 

This has been an enjoyable thread.   I like Gonners' 'just me and the spade'.  I think that experience is ace, and it has happened to me a lot.   But as they say in Zen, now fuck off and wash your mouth out, and stop talking this spiritual crap. 

[Dicky Underpants]

Zen is complicated, but one summary of it is, 'no path'.   Or, if you like, letting go.   However, to let go, you might need to try first of all!  Then you can stop. 

I think it's true that going for a long walk can achieve the same thing, i.e. an effortless state. 

This has been an enjoyable thread.   I like Gonners' 'just me and the spade'.  I think that experience is ace, and it has happened to me a lot.   But as they say in Zen, now fuck off and wash your mouth out, and stop talking this spiritual crap.

Gonners' dictum is the real McCoy. I like that aspect of Zen btw - but why the fucking Dojos?

[wigginhall]

I've never been to a fucking dojo, although some parties were rather similar.  Too old now, Dicky,  I have to watch the girls go by, and remember.

Being more serious, I was mates with John Crook, who became a top guy in the Western Chan Fellowship and eventually he became a 'Dharma heir'. 

Well, he was a top bloke, and far beyond anyone I knew, in his knowledge of Zen and practice of it, but all the accoutrements put me off really.   Well, for me, no path. 

[Jack Knave]

For me the downside to heaven is the harps.....and the little clouds.

There's also no toilets!!! 

[Gonnagle]

Dear Dickie,

Jesus walked on water
Jesus fed the 5000 (and 4000)
Jesus died for our sins
Jesus rose from the dead (literally)
Jesus was God incarnate

AH AH AH! No that is not the "wow" I was talking about, and I am almost sure that is not what you were inferring to in your original post.

When you've been a long-term seeker after the 'miraculous', like me, it's sure a lot harder to let go of such things. However, life is a stern teacher, and if one hasn't altogether abandoned a capacity to reason, one can certainly strip away a lot of the 'wow' factors, and begin to appreciate what is actually on offer in art, music and science etc.

Jesus walked on water, did he, very tame.

Jesus fed the 5000, really, so what.

Jesus died for our Sins, now your talking, but thousands of books have been written on the subject, only a few touch the heart of the subject.

Jesus rose from the dead ( literally ) did he, well I am in the Alan Alien camp on this, with God all things are possible, but where's the "wow".

Jesus was God incarnate, was he, not for me, Son of God.

If you want to find the "wow" in the Gospels look to the Passion and the Crucifixion.

But the "wow" I took from your post was the wonder of nature, God doing what he does best, an acorn growing into a mighty Oak, a baby being born, the sun rising, the things we take for granted but are God, God doing what God does best, the mundane and the miraculous.

Gonnagle.

[Shaker]

Hi Shaker

I got the impression from what you'd said earlier that you were something of a stranger to this sort of thing. I found your reference to 'wise teachers' a bit of a surprise too, though I knew you were more sympathetic to Buddhism than Christianity.

Only insofar as the sort of experiences related by contributors in the earlier part of the thread don't match my own experience - there's nothing comparable where I can say "Yes, I've experienced that too, I know just what you mean."

As for being more sympathetic to Buddhism, yes, up to a point, but only up to a point. I'm not a Buddhist and don't call myself one. I know a fair bit about it and there's much about it to applaud and emulate, but that's as far as it goes. There's too much baggage that I can't swallow.

My disillusion with Buddhism came as a result of a number of pundits insisting that Zen was somehow the culmination of Buddhist thought and practice (I've  a feeling wiggi still thinks this). Zen seems to want to do away with 'intention' altogether, ending up with saying "don't seek for enlightenment, for it will elude you". Which ends up by encouraging you "when you sit, just sit" etc.

Yes, some of the Zen stuff as wiggy will attest is pretty hardcore, and it's difficult for that not to start to give rise to feelings of being a bit superior.

I'm pretty sure there is no such thing as 'enlightenment' anyway

I don't know. But I do wonder.

[Dicky Underpants]

Dear Dickie,

AH AH AH! No that is not the "wow" I was talking about, and I am almost sure that is not what you were inferring to in your original post.

Hello Gonners

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid that is the 'wow' I was talking about, and what I was implying in my original post - that is to say, assertions of the 'supernatural' from whichever religious tradition, whether Mohammed flying unaided to Jerusalem, Sadhus materialising palaces in the Himalayas or Sai Baba conjuring up a multitude of golden lingams from his stomach - or Jesus rising from the dead.

Jesus walked on water, did he, very tame.

Jesus fed the 5000, really, so what.

I'm in sympathy with the gist of your post, which is that the important parts of the gospels are not to be found in the 'miracles', and your implication that the real 'miracles' are to be found in ordinary life itself ("Life itself is the miracle of miracles" G.B.S.) However, there are of course a great many Christians in the world who think that Jesus was able to suspend the known laws of physics at will, and, indeed, if I had seen Jesus imitating a helicopter to rise without visible means of support at his Ascension, then I feel I might just have expressed a tentative "wow". Such claims are in fact extraordinary, and anyone making them needs to provide extraordinary evidence for them. However, we know that there are many of the Evangelical camp who insist that the onus is on non-believers to prove them wrong (and most of us know the phrase for that particular fallacy )

Jesus died for our Sins, now your talking, but thousands of books have been written on the subject, only a few touch the heart of the subject.

There are a myriad of books and a myriad of interpretations - the heart of the subject, I would suggest, is the ability of such a belief to lift a person's sense of guilt to allow them to feel 'accepted'.

Jesus rose from the dead ( literally ) did he, well I am in the Alan Alien camp on this, with God all things are possible, but where's the "wow".

Jesus was God incarnate, was he, not for me, Son of God.

And you sound to me as though you want to have your cake and eat it too So it seems that you'd quite like to believe this 'wow', but otherwise adopt the rather reductionist  view of the world which you've outlined below.
As for 'God Incarnate' or 'Son of God' (or both), both of these depend on how you understand the phrases in the first place (or indeed what you mean by 'God'). I've certainly not much idea what is meant by 'Son of God', though I know it's been used in various ways from the ancient Hebrews onwards.  Just for the record - are you some kind of Unitarian?

If you want to find the "wow" in the Gospels look to the Passion and the Crucifixion.

Can't disagree with that - I've always considered Jesus admirably courageous, as I said.

But the "wow" I took from your post was the wonder of nature, God doing what he does best, an acorn growing into a mighty Oak, a baby being born, the sun rising, the things we take for granted but are God, God doing what God does best, the mundane and the miraculous.

Agree with all of that, except that you like to pepper the phrases with 'God'. Old Dickie Dawkins wrote a book about all that (I've got it -still unread - on my shelves) "An Appetite for Wonder".