Experiences

[Gonnagle]

Dear Dickie,

 

one can certainly strip away a lot of the 'wow' factors,

The floor is yours, tell me all about stripping away the "wow".

Gonnagle.

[Jack Knave]

I never had any mystical experience; maybe that's why I am an atheist.

But it's not really true to say I never had strange experience - it happens every nght during dreaming - but because we easily categorise it as 'just a dream' it doesn't mean it doesn't count as 'experience'. A dream is a form of conscious experience that happens during sleep.  Our normal waking experience is inspired moment to moment by novel sensory data out of which the brain creates a narrative of what is happening right now.  During sleep we are robbed of that sensory input but the brain is still trying to create narratives, and so with nothing novel to go on, it looks to memories and random hopes and fears to create a story out of.  Maybe this relates to why people who have mystical waking experience sometimes characterise it as being somewhat dreamlike in quality- perhaps it is in essence an irregular intrusion of dreamstate into wakefulness.

Highlighted part : I never really considered it before but the type of consciousness we have in our dream state, especially when we are asleep, is different, or relies on less of our wakeful state consciousness.

And memories as accessed, and as referred to, in your post would include inputs received whilst we were babies and before consciousness was at any adequate level.

[Hope]

I never had any mystical experience; maybe that's why I am an atheist.

What does having mystical experiences have to do with having a faith, torri?  Can't say that I've ever had any mystical experiences, yet I'm certainly not an atheist.

[BeRational]

What does having mystical experiences have to do with having a faith, torri?  Can't say that I've ever had any mystical experiences, yet I'm certainly not an atheist.

True, but you are not a logical person either.
Perhaps your inability to reason correctly is why you are a theist?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

True, but you are not a logical person either.
Perhaps your inability to reason correctly is why you are a theist?

Keep going Be Rational. You are my real life every supposed straw man I am supposed to have made up. The person everybody around here denies exists.

[torridon]

What does having mystical experiences have to do with having a faith, torri?  Can't say that I've ever had any mystical experiences, yet I'm certainly not an atheist.

Really ? I recall you posting up a while back that you felt an 'evil presence' or somesuch, in Durbar Square Kathmandu and I remember thinking at the time how I'd been there so many times but I'd never had felt any such experience or presence.
 
Well, whatever, clearly not everyone has mystical experience, but historically there have been sufficient numbers of such people to convince others that there really is something spooky going on, there really are some unseen forces at work, forces of good and evil, say. A peasant girl has a vision of the Virgin Mary in medieval France, noone comes to her aid with medication suspecting psychosis or epileptic seizure, no, people take her experience at face value because her story resonates with what has already become part of the cultural zeitgest.  Also, people having strange or irregular experiences have tended to make a noise about it, exactly because it is er, strange and irregular.  People who do not have mystical experience on the other hand don't feel inspired to get up on a soapbox and shout about the fact that, er,  nothing happened,

[torridon]

Highlighted part : I never really considered it before but the type of consciousness we have in our dream state, especially when we are asleep, is different, or relies on less of our wakeful state consciousness.

Yes that is the point I was making.  What happens when we are dreaming is just a continuation of what brains do for a living, most of the time, they are exquisitely honed for the construction of narratives and whilst we are conscious that narrative stream informs us about what is happening within us and around us,  But just as we can't stop seeing faces where there are none,  in rocks or clouds, say, so also the brain cannot stop creating narrative streams and whilst we are asleep there is no incoming original sensory data to construct a truly useful stream from so the brain ends up creating random stories out of fragments of memories stitched together by underlying desires and fears.

So, in a sense, understanding why we dream helps us to understand our normal waking experience. In a sense we are all dreaming all the time, only during waking hours, our dreams have novel sensory data to construct narratives from and the resulting waking narrative is faithful enough to internal and external reality, that we can take it for reality, which is what we all do, intuitively, all the time.

[Rhiannon]

When you've been a long-term seeker after the 'miraculous', like me, it's sure a lot harder to let go of such things. However, life is a stern teacher, and if one hasn't altogether abandoned a capacity to reason, one can certainly strip away a lot of the 'wow' factors, and begin to appreciate what is actually on offer in art, music and science etc.

I can relate to that, Dicky. The more I realised I wanted something to be real the more inevitable it became that I'd have to admit that it wasn't.

For me the 'wows' haven't gone away. They are just for what is though, and for what I don't know, what I'm discovering, for how things make me feel. Not for what I want to be real, not for wishful thinking. And really there's no need for any more.

[torridon]

Huang Po [9th C Ch.  Zen Buddhist Master]  Those who seek the truth by means of intellect and learning only get further and further from it.   Not until your thoughts cease, not until you abandon seeking for something, not until your mind is as motionless as stone will you be on the right road to the Gate.

This reminds me of Jill Bolte Taylor's left brain shutdown; remove the left brain's incessant chatter and rationalising and we are left at one with the world around us in a state of bliss, no longer separate.  We cannot live for long in such state though, our success is founded upon having two very separate and different brains in constant tension with each other, the outcome of which negotiation is a better all round ability to thrive.

[Shaker]

Mysticism is one of those words for which there are probably many views about.  One view is that it is not about seeking out experiences but stilling the mind or entering a still  inner space.  What arises tends to be indescribable and attempts to communicate it to others only give a sense of it, like formless, expansiveness, one-ness, overwhelming bliss, timelessness within which the individual consciousness is lost and found at the same time, a sense of enlivening and empowering.

Certainly had experiences of this nature (all too few, alas!), mostly (though not exclusively) connected with prolonged meditation, which has waxed and waned over the years but used to be pretty intensive at various stages of my life.

In Buddhist meditation they're a well-known pitfall - not that there's anything inherently wrong about such experiences (who doesn't like feeling absolutely indescribably amazing?), save that some people (perfectly naturally, for the most understandable of reasons) chase after them and think that if meditation can produce such lovely blissful experiences, as it can, then that's something to run after and make the point of meditating at all, which is just another form of attachment or clinging. This is completely contrary to the spirit of meditation and all wise teachers are alert to this: by all means enjoy the experiences as they're lovely - just don't cling on to them and make them all about meditation. They're nice, but a passing show - observe, but don't get involved. 

[Bubbles]

This reminds me of Jill Bolte Taylor's left brain shutdown; remove the left brain's incessant chatter and rationalising and we are left at one with the world around us in a state of bliss, no longer separate.  We cannot live for long in such state though, our success is founded upon having two very separate and different brains in constant tension with each other, the outcome of which negotiation is a better all round ability to thrive.

Oneness is ok, until you become lunch.

It's not a good survival technique to wander or sit about feeling at one with the universe.

It's likely you would be, as in the food chain.

It's a luxury, being able to meditate etc, brought about by our civilisation.

Strangely enough I think it is our distance from nature that allows us to do it, like looking at a beautiful frost from the knowledge that a warm home and cuppa awaits once home.

[Udayana]

...
In Buddhist meditation they're a well-known pitfall - not that there's anything inherently wrong about such experiences (who doesn't like feeling absolutely indescribably amazing?), save that some people (perfectly naturally, for the most understandable of reasons) chase after them and think that if meditation can produce such lovely blissful experiences, as it can, then that's something to run after and make the point of meditating at all, which is just another form of attachment or clinging. This is completely contrary to the spirit of meditation and all wise teachers are alert to this: by all means enjoy the experiences as they're lovely - just don't cling on to them and make them all about meditation. They're nice, but a passing show - observe, but don't get involved.

What's the main event then?

[Udayana]

Oneness is ok, until you become lunch.

It's not a good survival technique to wander or sit about feeling at one with the universe.

It's likely you would be, as in the food chain.

It's a luxury, being able to meditate etc, brought about by our civilisation.

Strangely enough I think it is our distance from nature that allows us to do it, like looking at a beautiful frost from the knowledge that a warm home and cuppa awaits once home.

Does survival or comfort actually matter? - Only until it doesn't.

[torridon]

Oneness is ok, until you become lunch.

It's not a good survival technique to wander or sit about feeling at one with the universe.

It's likely you would be, as in the food chain.

Quite.

Maybe bliss has to be momentary anyway.

That's why I don't believe in heaven; a permanent state of bliss would not be blissfull at all.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Quite.

Maybe bliss has to be momentary anyway.

That's why I don't believe in heaven; a permanent state of bliss would not be blissfull at all.

For me the downside to heaven is the harps.....and the little clouds.

[Shaker]

What's the main event then?

With regard to meditation? Depends on the school. Those of a Zen bent for example say that it has no purpose - you don't sit for any reason, you simply sit in order to sit.

Wigginhall is your man for this sort of thing - he might chip in if he sees this thread and feels like it.

[Sassy]

Who created the word Mystical?

Are we talking about actual experiences or imaginary?

 

[Bubbles]

Who created the word Mystical?

Are we talking about actual experiences or imaginary?

 

That's the question though, isn't it?

Why should one persons experience be considered valid, because it fits in with our own belief system and someone else who doesn't  gets thought of as deluded and false & imaginary?

People tend to believe those people who's beliefs reinforce their own.

IMO There is no difference between someone here, who has an experience, and Mohammed or any of the other people. who get acknowledged for it. People make to much fuss about certain individuals who experience one.

It happens to millions of people.

It's so easy to dismiss experiences as imaginary that don't fit our worldview.

I think everyone does it, up to a point.

We have no way of validating which experiences are real and which ones are imaginary.

It just interesting when people share features to them.

🌹

[ekim]

This reminds me of Jill Bolte Taylor's left brain shutdown; remove the left brain's incessant chatter and rationalising and we are left at one with the world around us in a state of bliss, no longer separate.  We cannot live for long in such state though, our success is founded upon having two very separate and different brains in constant tension with each other, the outcome of which negotiation is a better all round ability to thrive.

Yes.  Perhaps a harmonising of the two when negotiating the world we live in is the way forward.  Spending too much time in a state of mental tension and looking for release or a paradise break in the external world doesn't always do that.  If one looks at it as a right brain left brain situation perhaps starting with the right brain's bliss or joy as a basis and carrying that into left brain experiences one can enjoy or put joy into the world rather than seeking to extract it from that world.

[ekim]

Certainly had experiences of this nature (all too few, alas!), mostly (though not exclusively) connected with prolonged meditation, which has waxed and waned over the years but used to be pretty intensive at various stages of my life.

In Buddhist meditation they're a well-known pitfall - not that there's anything inherently wrong about such experiences (who doesn't like feeling absolutely indescribably amazing?), save that some people (perfectly naturally, for the most understandable of reasons) chase after them and think that if meditation can produce such lovely blissful experiences, as it can, then that's something to run after and make the point of meditating at all, which is just another form of attachment or clinging. This is completely contrary to the spirit of meditation and all wise teachers are alert to this: by all means enjoy the experiences as they're lovely - just don't cling on to them and make them all about meditation. They're nice, but a passing show - observe, but don't get involved.

Yes, creating an ambition tends to be counter productive and is likely to agitate the mind, or inflate the ego.  Whatever arises from inner stillness shouldn't be a source of attraction or distraction no matter how wonderful.

[Bubbles]

Yes, creating an ambition tends to be counter productive and is likely to agitate the mind, or inflate the ego.  Whatever arises from inner stillness shouldn't be a source of attraction or distraction no matter how wonderful.

Inflating the ego might help some people with a low self esteem, as long as they don't take it too far.

Sometimes it's good to remember some of our good points, instead of constantly beating our self up with our faults and mistakes 

A little bit of wonderful is needed now and again 

[ekim]

Inflating the ego might help some people with a low self esteem, as long as they don't take it too far.

Sometimes it's good to remember some of our good points, instead of constantly beating our self up with our faults and mistakes 

A little bit of wonderful is needed now and again 

That's one of the differences between following the, so called, spiritual path and the 'worldly' path.  The former sees the ego/self as the source of selfishness and leads to conflict with other egos and a spiritual or religious ego is no exception.  The latter sees the ego/self as something to be cultivated and which often leads to being self centred, self righteous, self absorbed and as you have hinted, low self esteem.  I suppose not much else can be expected when there appears to be a drive from early life to develop a strong ego in order to compete with other already well established egos.

[Bubbles]

That's one of the differences between following the, so called, spiritual path and the 'worldly' path.  The former sees the ego/self as the source of selfishness and leads to conflict with other egos and a spiritual or religious ego is no exception.  The latter sees the ego/self as something to be cultivated and which often leads to being self centred, self righteous, self absorbed and as you have hinted, low self esteem.  I suppose not much else can be expected when there appears to be a drive from early life to develop a strong ego in order to compete with other already well established egos.

The trouble is, the so called spiritual path can be as egotistical as the worldly one, sometimes more so.

[ekim]

The trouble is, the so called spiritual path can be as egotistical as the worldly one, sometimes more so.

Yes, that's what I meant by 'and a spiritual or religious ego is no exception'.  It makes it easy for extremists to fashion a collective religious ego to persecute the infidel.

[Udayana]

Yes ... but if that's what they think is right, why shouldn't they?

Both personally and as a society some kind of objectives need to be laid down. The "path" and the experiences along it may lead to heaven or hell or nowhere at all, but we're still on it.