Pope's new message

[Sriram]

HI everyone,

Here is a CNN report about the Pope's new message.

http://us.cnn.com/2016/04/08/europe/vatican-pope-family/index.html

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Pope Francis put his shoulder to the doors of the Catholic Church and shoved them open a little wider Friday, calling for the church to be more tolerant in practice while not changing any official doctrines.

He urged priests around the world to be more accepting of gays and lesbians, divorced Catholics and other people living in what the church considers "irregular" situations.

"A pastor cannot feel that it is enough simply to apply moral laws ... as if they were stones to throw at people's lives," Francis writes in a sweeping paper outlining his stance on family matters.

He urges more common sense and less unthinking following of rules.

"By thinking that everything is black and white, we sometimes close off the way of grace and growth," he writes.

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Cheers.

Sriram

[ProfessorDavey]

HI everyone,

Here is a CNN report about the Pope's new message.

http://us.cnn.com/2016/04/08/europe/vatican-pope-family/index.html

**************

Pope Francis put his shoulder to the doors of the Catholic Church and shoved them open a little wider Friday, calling for the church to be more tolerant in practice while not changing any official doctrines.

He urged priests around the world to be more accepting of gays and lesbians, divorced Catholics and other people living in what the church considers "irregular" situations.

"A pastor cannot feel that it is enough simply to apply moral laws ... as if they were stones to throw at people's lives," Francis writes in a sweeping paper outlining his stance on family matters.

He urges more common sense and less unthinking following of rules.

"By thinking that everything is black and white, we sometimes close off the way of grace and growth," he writes.

***************

Cheers.

Sriram

Words, words, words. We've heard them all before but they mean nothing without action.

[floo]

Words, words, words. We've heard them all before but they mean nothing without action.

Quite right, action speaks much louder than mere words.

[Shaker]

"Pope talks a good game but doesn't actually get down to introducing any actual change" shocker.

[Rhiannon]

My thoughts exactly.

[Brownie]

Thanks for posting this Sririam.

I do understand the scepticism of others here, don't expect anything different and I admit to feeling the same myself.

I am a Catholic, quite liberal and many on forums have told me that I am ''not a real Catholic''; fair enough but when I became a Catholic, in 1992, I joined a church that was progressive and liberal.  That is enough about all that, please don't ask anything about it because I have nothing to add, except that I have lapsed.

I've not taken a great deal of notice of the Popes in recent times but I really like what little I know of Pope Frrancis.

Quote from: ProfessorDavey on Today at 04:25:59 PM
Words, words, words. We've heard them all before but they mean nothing without action.

I certainly understand what Prof Davey says, feel much the same, but Pope Francis does seem like a breath of fresh air.  Let's see him in the same way as we see politicians or would be politicians;  they have ideals, some of which fall by the wayside, others do flourish.

[Enki]

My initial thoughts on the Pope's message are summed up in the phrase, "Move Along, nothing much  to see here".

[Gonnagle]

Dear Sriram,

He urged priests around the world to be more accepting of gays and lesbians, divorced Catholics and other people living in what the church considers "irregular" situations.

What's a regular situation, married couple two point five children

Anyway, a spokesman for the RC Church on the radio yesterday said, it is now down to the foot soldiers, the conservative priests will think, business as usual, lets hope the more liberal will think, open door, come one come all.

Gonnagle.

[Shaker]

There's abundant evidence that one a one-to-one level he's a humble, personable and even engaging man.

But I suspect that, as with Rowan Williams (of whom exactly the same can be said), his position means that he has to and has to be seen to hold his organisation together and value unity over pretty well anything and everything else. That's an unenviable position to be in, I admit, but comes at a great cost.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

There's abundant evidence that one a one-to-one level he's a humble, personable and even engaging man.

But I suspect that, as with Rowan Williams (of whom exactly the same can be said), his position means that he has to and has to be seen to hold his organisation together and value unity over pretty well anything and everything else. That's an unenviable position to be in, I admit, but comes at a great cost.

I think you are wrong to see the RC's as the ''great ready to fall apart''...and I ain't an RC.

I think that's a bit of a straw clutch based on the changes in UK society.....some of which seem to favour you although the church attendance drop isn't all it's cracked up to be if you take the Paxman line that the English have never been big on the church.

What he is saying is that those with unconventional life styles in terms of traditional values are not necessarily living in mortal sin............I guess I can sort of get what he means in terms of a more protestant theology.

[Brownie]

Yeah, I get that too.  He is saying there's much more to a person than what is obvious.  A person should not be defined by their sexual orientation.  Well at least that's what I think he is saying.

[Sebastian Toe]

Yeah, I get that too.  He is saying there's much more to a person than what is obvious.  A person should not be defined by their sexual orientation.  Well at least that's what I think he is saying.

Does that mean that those of the homosexual orientation will no longer be defined as 'sinners'?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Does that mean that those of the homosexual orientation will no longer be defined as 'sinners'?

We are all sinners in Christian theology rather than being perfectly perfect in everyway la la la............... in the secular humanist thinking.....you know the old Disney adage we're the bad guys but we're the good guys really.

[Brownie]

Does that mean that those of the homosexual orientation will no longer be defined as 'sinners'?

I didn't realise they were defined as sinners now.  The anti-gay Christians always say it is the practice, not the orientation.  Grossly unfair coming from people who are able to have happy marriages etc but there it is.

The way I see it, the Pope has nothing against gay partnerships, he can't change church policy so is going as far as he can whilst staying within the rules.

[floo]

I didn't realise they were defined as sinners now.  The anti-gay Christians always say it is the practice, not the orientation.  Grossly unfair coming from people who are able to have happy marriages etc but there it is.

The way I see it, the Pope has nothing against gay partnerships, he can't change church policy so is going as far as he can whilst staying within the rules.

The Catholic dogma needs to be thrown into the dustbin, and reinvented in a way which suits 21st century perceptions.

[Hope]

What's a regular situation, married couple two point five children

As far as relationships are concerned, the number of children is irrelevant, Gonners.  Its the nature of the relationship of the adults that is important.  One man, one woman is regarded as the regular situation by Catholics, and many others - both religious and non-religious people.

[Hope]

Does that mean that those of the homosexual orientation will no longer be defined as 'sinners'?

No, because the area of sexuality isn't the only aspect of our lives where we can, and do, do wrong.

At the same time, because we are all sinners, we should treat others as humans - no greater or lesser than ourselves.  That isn't to say that we should ignore wrongdoing, but accept that, ultimately, we are no different.  I think one of the problems that this can cause is that some here believe that Christians believe that they are without sin, something that all Christias would adamantly deny.

[Hope]

The Catholic dogma needs to be thrown into the dustbin, and reinvented in a way which suits 21st century perceptions.

So, the Church has to deny the nature of its existence, and take on modern social mores which might change tomorrow?  What's the point in that?  I'm not saying that the Church has always followed Christ's teachings, but nor has society.  Re-inventing something 'in a way which suits 21st century perceptions' could well end up with the Church becoming even less true to Christ's teaching.

[floo]

So, the Church has to deny the nature of its existence, and take on modern social mores which might change tomorrow?  What's the point in that?  I'm not saying that the Church has always followed Christ's teachings, but nor has society.  Re-inventing something 'in a way which suits 21st century perceptions' could well end up with the Church becoming even less true to Christ's teaching.

And would that be a bad thing?

[Shaker]

So, the Church has to deny the nature of its existence, and take on modern social mores which might change tomorrow?  What's the point in that?

Having a framework of values predicated on the happiness and well-being of real human beings rather than the appeasement of entirely unevidenced alleged supernatural figures, perhaps?

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

At the same time, because we are all sinners, we should treat others as humans - no greater or lesser than ourselves.
 

But you believe that homosexual people are damaged.  That they should not be treated equally in society, people should be able discriminated against them.

[Hope]

Having a framework of values predicated on the happiness and well-being of real human beings rather than the appeasement of entirely unevidenced alleged supernatural figures, perhaps?

Predicated on the happiness of which real human beings?  The ones who can afford to ignore those values?  Or the ones who can't even hope to enjoy the fruits of that framework?

[floo]

But you believe that homosexual people are damaged.  That they should not be treated equally in society, people should be able discriminated against them.

Hope certainly doesn't believe homosexuals and heterosexuals are equal.

[Shaker]

Predicated on the happiness of which real human beings?

All of them.

[Hope]

And would that be a bad thing?

In my view, yes it would.  As I've said here and elsewhere several times, I believe that modern society is increasingly divided and increasingly fragmented.  Individual happiness seems to have taken precedence over social cohesion.