Pope's new message

[Hope]

Why wouldn't they?

OK, let's give you an example that is unrelated to the issue under discussion.  You use the railways regularly and on turning 60 you continue to do so.  For whatever reason, you don't obtain a Senior Railcard, which cuts what you pay for tickets by about 1/3.  It may be that you don't want to accept that you have reached such an age; perhaps you feel that you are too busy to send the time getting one - online it takes about 10 minutes, in person probably 15/20 mins; it might simply be that - for all the adverts and publicity around their availability - you simply haven't heard about them.

You feel perfectly comfortable/happy paying full-price but aren't actually enjoying the fullness of the law.

[Gordon]

OK, let's give you an example that is unrelated to the issue under discussion.

So not a related example then: that'll be useful (not)!

You use the railways regularly and on turning 60 you continue to do so.  For whatever reason, you don't obtain a Senior Railcard, which cuts what you pay for tickets by about 1/3.  It may be that you don't want to accept that you have reached such an age; perhaps you feel that you are too busy to send the time getting one - online it takes about 10 minutes, in person probably 15/20 mins; it might simply be that - for all the adverts and publicity around their availability - you simply haven't heard about them.

You feel perfectly comfortable/happy paying full-price but aren't actually enjoying the fullness of the law.

So, what we have here is in effect a 'relationships are just like train-tickets' analogy/sermon -  sounds a bit pyhtonesque to me.

[Rhiannon]

Except that I don't confuse the two.  What I understand by individual happiness is that the individual comes first with themselves.  We see this in the context of such things as the Panama Papers, where the individual is primary whilst society is relegated to the back burner or even further than that.  Such people still adopt sets of personal boundaries and fel perfectly OK with how they treat others.

Unfortunately, in such cases each individual set those boundaries for themselves - and they sometimes feel that they aren't obliged to respect the boundaries that society has set around itself.
They believe that they do, and they have every right to do so, but it can be asked whether they really do experience the full extent of happiness that they - as humans - can experience.

Oh for goodness' sake, Hope! So no Christians go for tax avoidance schemes?

And why are society's boundaries superior to any that I might have? It wasn't so long ago that society said that single parenthood was shameful, that gay relationships were criminal, that a man couldn't rape his wife. Thank goodness people have seen fit to challenge society over those boundaries.

Hard though it may be for you to accept, I'm happier since deciding that Jesus doesn't want me for a sunbeam. Not least because I had to come out of my smug little Christian bubble and see the person it had made me into - not one I feel proud of being, if I'm honest. I don't know if I'm a better one now but I think I'm probably nicer to be around.

[Shaker]

OK, let's give you an example that is unrelated to the issue under discussion.

Why? Why can't you give an example that's related to the issue under discussion? Any reason in particular?

[Shaker]

Hard though it may be for you to accept, I'm happier since deciding that Jesus doesn't want me for a sunbeam. Not least because I had to come out of my smug little Christian bubble and see the person it had made me into - not one I feel proud of being, if I'm honest. I don't know if I'm a better one now but I think I'm probably nicer to be around.

... which certainly counts as better in practically anybody's book

[Sebastian Toe]

The difference between non-believers and believers is often simply that believers have accepted that they are flawed humanity, whilst un-believers haven't.

Do any un-believers (I'll assume that you mean 'not Christians', for now) here think that they are not flawed in some way?

I'll start - no.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Do any un-believers (I'll assume that you mean 'not Christians', for now) here think that they are not flawed in some way?

I'll start - no.

And hands up those who think that their flaw really matters?

[floo]

Do any un-believers (I'll assume that you mean 'not Christians', for now) here think that they are not flawed in some way?

I'll start - no.

Only an idiot would think they were perfect.

[Shaker]

And hands up those who think that their flaw really matters?

Mine does when I mop it.

[Sebastian Toe]

And hands up those who think that their flaw really matters?

I'll be interested to see what Hope has to say on that.

BTW do you?

[Rhiannon]

And hands up those who think that their flaw really matters?

Of course our flaws matter; they are a part of who we are and whilst we can't change who we are we can change what we do, if necessary - it isn't always. What is a flaw to us - perhaps because of cultural conditioning - can be an asset or attribute in the eyes of others.

Whatever, few of us - any of us - have flaws that render us unacceptable  - 'miserable sinners' in your parlance.

[floo]

Of course our flaws matter; they are a part of who we are and whilst we can't change who we are we can change what we do, if necessary - it isn't always. What is a flaw to us - perhaps because of cultural conditioning - can be an asset or attribute in the eyes of others.

Whatever, few of us - any of us - have flaws that render us unacceptable  - 'miserable sinners' in your parlance.

Paedophiles have flaws which render them totally unacceptable.

[Rhiannon]

Paedophiles have flaws which render them totally unacceptable.

Well yeah, so do murders and rapists.

And?

[Shaker]

Paedophiles have flaws which render them totally unacceptable.

Acting on that particular flaw is entirely unacceptable, certainly. But self-awareness of the flaw is key. Although it was said here recently that paedophiles are in effect delusional about their sexual orientation and incapable of change, I'm not sure that that's always true. I've heard of some men who are aware of their attraction to minors, are horrified by it and have voluntarily sought treatment for it.

[Rhiannon]

And in context my 'any of us' refers to believer or non-believer alike. It was a response to the tendency here to divide us into sheep and goats.

[Bubbles]

Paedophiles have flaws which render them totally unacceptable.

IMO it's not the flaw that makes them unacceptable, but the acting on it.