Heart + Mind = Wisdom

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

Here is a Science Daily article about how wisdom involves the Heart and the Mind. Something most ancients knew.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/04/160407221449.htm

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The fluctuations of your heartbeat may affect your wisdom, according to new research from the University of Waterloo.

The study suggests that heart rate variation and thinking process work together to enable wise reasoning about complex social issues. The work by Igor Grossmann, professor of psychology at Waterloo, and colleagues based at the Australian Catholic University, appears in the online journal Frontiers in Behavioral Neuroscience.

Their study breaks new ground in wisdom research by identifying conditions under which psychophysiology impacts wise judgment.

"Our research shows that wise reasoning is not exclusively a function of the mind and cognitive ability," says Prof. Grossmann. "We found that people who have greater heart rate variability and who are able to think about social problems from a distanced viewpoint demonstrate a greater capacity for wise reasoning."

A growing consensus among philosophers and cognitive scientists defines wise judgment to include the ability to recognize the limits of one's knowledge, to be aware of the varied contexts of life and how they may unfold over time, to acknowledge others' points of view, and to seek reconciliation of opposing viewpoints.

The new study is the first to show that the physiology of the heart, specifically the variability of heart rate during low physical activity, is related to less biased, wiser judgment.

To channel their cognitive abilities for wiser judgment, people with greater heart rate variability first need to overcome their egocentric viewpoints."

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For information.

Cheers.

Sriram

[Sebastian Toe]

I had porridge for breakfast today.

[Stranger]

A growing consensus among philosophers and cognitive scientists defines wise judgment to include the ability to recognize the limits of one's knowledge...

Something for you to take to heart...

[torridon]

Hi everyone,

Here is a Science Daily article about how wisdom involves the Heart and the Mind. Something most ancients knew.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/04/160407221449.htm

I don't think the ancients knew anything at all about a relationship between resting heart rate variability and egocentrism or about the metabolic requirements of cognitive processing.

The findings sound interesting, I think I'll have a read up and try to understand it.

[Sriram]

I don't think the ancients knew anything at all about a relationship between resting heart rate variability and egocentrism or about the metabolic requirements of cognitive processing.

The findings sound interesting, I think I'll have a read up and try to understand it.

The above article talks of 'heart rate variability' and wisdom ...which I think is a bit simplistic. There cannot be any direct connection between the heart rate and wisdom.....but the heart rate is probably the only thing the scientists can measure...and so they have established a correlation.....which is ok.

The real factor is probably the cellular memory. We have seen earlier cases of heart transplant recipients having changed personalities.

The ancients knew a lot  about the 'heart' and how the mind worked. I don't want to go into the little matter of the 'heart chakra'  at this point  ....but the ancients certainly knew a lot about the mind, wisdom and such matters. No doubt about that. Many Yogis can change their heart rate at will.

[Bubbles]

The above article talks of 'heart rate variability' and wisdom ...which I think is a bit simplistic. There cannot be any direct connection between the heart rate and wisdom.....but the heart rate is probably the only thing the scientists can measure...and so they have established a correlation.....which is ok.

The real factor is probably the cellular memory. We have seen earlier cases of heart transplant recipients having changed personalities.

The ancients knew a lot  about the 'heart' and how the mind worked. I don't want to go into the little matter of the 'heart chakra'  at this point  ....but the ancients certainly knew a lot about the mind, wisdom and such matters. No doubt about that. Many Yogis can change their heart rate at will.

Wisdom = man sees tiger - heart rate goes up and he gets out the way fast.

Your heart rate goes up to enable you, and to prepare you, for action.

A shot of adrenaline.

🐅🐅🐅🐅🐅🐅🐅🐅🐅🐅🐅🐅🐾🐾🐾🐾🐾🐾🐾🐾🐾

A lot of people can control their heart rate at will.

You either just relax totally or tense up and think of something scary.

[Stranger]

No doubt about that.

From previous experience of you making such claims, I'll assume you have not a shred of evidence, you don't understand the subject, but you'd really, really like it to be true...

[Sriram]

Wisdom = man sees tiger - heart rate goes up and he gets out the way fast.

Your heart rate goes up to enable you, and to prepare you, for action.

A shot of adrenaline.

🐅🐅🐅🐅🐅🐅🐅🐅🐅🐅🐅🐅🐾🐾🐾🐾🐾🐾🐾🐾🐾

A lot of people can control their heart rate at will.

You either just relax totally or tense up and think of something scary.

Getting out of a tigers way is a standard 'fight or flight' response which is triggered by the survival instinct....which no doubt affects the release of adrenaline and the increase in heart rate.

But I don't think that is what the article refers to as 'wisdom'. 

[torridon]

The above article talks of 'heart rate variability' and wisdom ...which I think is a bit simplistic. There cannot be any direct connection between the heart rate and wisdom.....but the heart rate is probably the only thing the scientists can measure...and so they have established a correlation.....which is ok.

On the contrary, the study finds there is evidence of a link.

This study aims to ask the question - is there a physiogical basis to wisdom - and the answer is broadly, yes.  Not a huge study, 150 participants, but not tiny either.

Wisdom is not the same as cleverness, or intelligence.  In addition to cleverness, wisdom requires social empathy, the ability to see things from someone else's point of view.  Empathy in turn is compromised by egocentrism, and egocentrism is affected by vagal tone.  Doctors describe people who have a habitually negative view of life and of other people as having low vagal tone, their capacity for empathy is diminished.  There is an already known relationship between resting heart rate variability and vagal tone.  This study provided empirical evidence of this relationship and offers a neuroscientific explanation in terms of heart rate variability providing greater flexibility in glucose delivery to peripheral brain areas thus potentially engaging wider brain function and better control over vagal tone leading to a more understanding, and therefore wise, person.

[Sriram]

On the contrary, the study finds there is evidence of a link.

This study aims to ask the question - is there a physiogical basis to wisdom - and the answer is broadly, yes.  Not a huge study, 150 participants, but not tiny either.

Wisdom is not the same as cleverness, or intelligence.  In addition to cleverness, wisdom requires social empathy, the ability to see things from someone else's point of view.  Empathy in turn is compromised by egocentrism, and egocentrism is affected by vagal tone.  Doctors describe people who have a habitually negative view of life and of other people as having low vagal tone, their capacity for empathy is diminished.  There is an already known relationship between resting heart rate variability and vagal tone.  This study provided empirical evidence of this relationship and offers a neuroscientific explanation in terms of heart rate variability providing greater flexibility in glucose delivery to peripheral brain areas thus potentially engaging wider brain function and better control over vagal tone leading to a more understanding, and therefore wise, person.

Correlation is not causation. The Vagus nerve activity does decrease the heart rate and keep the activity of all organs within limits. This however does not translate as 'wisdom'. 

The same decrease in heart rate happens in children, athletes and  in all humans and animals at different times during the day.  Decreased heart rate = wisdom is not correct.

However, if a person becomes less ego centric,  more emotionally balanced, more passive and more contented....the vagus activity will increase and the heart rate will obviously decrease. This is the only correlation between the heart rate and wisdom.  In this instance, the change in mental condition causes a change in the heart rate.

We know very well that a certain frame of mind is conducive to good physical health. That is what Yoga, meditation and prayers are all about.

The Vagal tone and the heart rate are only the physical components of the process. Its the Mind that causes changes in these components...and the mind is a mystery.

As I said earlier, if we go into the biofield and the chakra system we can understand the mind and its relation to the heart more clearly....but sometime later on that. 

[Bubbles]

Is this what you mean?

http://www.chopra.com/ccl/what-is-a-chakra

[torridon]

Correlation is not causation. The Vagus nerve activity does decrease the heart rate and keep the activity of all organs within limits. This however does not translate as 'wisdom'. 

The same decrease in heart rate happens in children, athletes and  in all humans and animals at different times during the day.  Decreased heart rate = wisdom is not correct.

However, if a person becomes less ego centric,  more emotionally balanced, more passive and more contented....the vagus activity will increase and the heart rate will obviously decrease. This is the only correlation between the heart rate and wisdom.

You've misunderstood these findings, either that or maybe you didn't read the study at all.  It found the correlation the other way round, a greater variability in heart rate lead to greater 'wisdom', confounding what we might have expected in terms of a calm person being wise.

The Vagal tone and the heart rate are only the physical components of the process. Its the Mind that causes changes in these components...and the mind is a mystery.

Again you have missed the point of the study, seeming to want only to wrangle it to fit in with pre-existing beliefs.  This study is one attempting to address the physiological basis of mind.  Mind might be mysterious, OK, to an extent, but it is not off limits to research and we have been making progress such as this for a hundred years or so now.  This study shows how aspects of mind are derived from physiological conditions in the body.  Clearly there are feedbacks involved, nothing is ever simple in neuroscience, body affects mind and mind affects body, the two concepts are intimately bound up together.  Just saying the mind is a mystery will get us nowhere.

[Sriram]

torridon,

Ok. A high heart rate variability means that there is greater connection between the mind and the heart. The nervous system (Vagus nerve) causes greater responses to the heart due to changes n the mind. The heart responds quickly to mental changes. This is both considered healthy and also said to lead to wise decisions.

Again...its not the heart rate variability that equates to wisdom. Even Hitler would have had high heart rate variability at many times during the day.

The last sentence in the OP states that......" To channel their cognitive abilities for wiser judgment, people with greater heart rate variability first need to overcome their egocentric viewpoints."

In other words....its not the heart rate variability that leads to wisdom...its the decrease in egocentric viewpoints that leads to wisdom. Only that it is often accompanied by high heart rate variability. And unfortunately, that's the only parameter scientists can measure.

The article talks of the combined effect of the mind with the heart rate variability that leads to wisdom. Which means that the mind needs to work with the heart to be able to make wise decisions. The greater the response of the heart to the mental changes...the greater the heart rate variability.

In other word...the issue is about sensitivity leading to wisdom. This is where the Chakra system is relevant.

[Bubbles]

You've misunderstood these findings, either that or maybe you didn't read the study at all.  It found the correlation the other way round, a greater variability in heart rate lead to greater 'wisdom', confounding what we might have expected in terms of a calm person being wise.

Again you have missed the point of the study, seeming to want only to wrangle it to fit in with pre-existing beliefs.  This study is one attempting to address the physiological basis of mind.  Mind might be mysterious, OK, to an extent, but it is not off limits to research and we have been making progress such as this for a hundred years or so now.  This study shows how aspects of mind are derived from physiological conditions in the body.  Clearly there are feedbacks involved, nothing is ever simple in neuroscience, body affects mind and mind affects body, the two concepts are intimately bound up together.  Just saying the mind is a mystery will get us nowhere.

Yep!

Back to my tiger scenario.

A wise person considers the possibilities, which probably puts the heart rate up, because the brain produces chemicals " just in case" an action is required.

A calm person isn't contemplating actions.

So in a wise person the chemicals are triggered sooner.

It sort of makes sense.

Even though someone may appear calm on the outside, doesn't mean their brain or what's going on inside is relaxed.

its just someone controlling their fear, to work out the wisest way of avoiding the tiger, which may not be to run.

But the heart can still beat faster.

Perhaps wisdom is 50% judgement and 50% self control and the raised heartbeat is triggered earlier by the tension between the two.

Hence the raised heartbeat in wise people.

Plus if someone is a bit thick, they might not have even  noticed a potential threat yet.

Just a wild guess 

I think the idea of a wise person being calm almost blasé is wrong, I think it is more a wise person is in control of themselves. For some reason though people have always depicted them as blasé.

[torridon]

torridon,

Ok. A high heart rate variability means that there is greater connection between the mind and the heart. The nervous system (Vagus nerve) causes greater responses to the heart due to changes n the mind. The heart responds quickly to mental changes. This is both considered healthy and also said to lead to wise decisions.

Again...its not the heart rate variability that equates to wisdom. Even Hitler would have had high heart rate variability at many times during the day.

The last sentence in the OP states that......" To channel their cognitive abilities for wiser judgment, people with greater heart rate variability first need to overcome their egocentric viewpoints."

In other words....its not the heart rate variability that leads to wisdom...its the decrease in egocentric viewpoints that leads to wisdom. Only that it is often accompanied by high heart rate variability.

More accurately, the study finds that heart rate variability is a key factor leading to wisdom.  They never claim it to be the only one, nor the main one; rather it is a factor to be taken into account in conjunction with egocentrism, or self-distancing/self-immersion, in the words of the authors. Egocentrism is an underlying personality trait; we all lie somewhere on an egocentric spectrum. 

The key lesson to learn from this study is this : that when we attempt to think with empathy, to consider other people's point of view, those individuals with higher variability in resting heart rate are better able to overcome their natural predisposition to self-centred thinking, and therefore more wise and gracious.

[torridon]

I think the idea of a wise person being calm almost blasé is wrong, I think it is more a wise person is in control of themselves. For some reason though people have always depicted them as blasé.

I think we could summarise how this finding could play out in layman terms as follows :

We have tended to view a calm person as being a wise person; but these findings suggest rather, that a calm person is in fact more likely to be smugly self-satisfied with his own rightness, and therefore less able to bring empathy and understanding to a problem.

[Bubbles]

I think we could summarise how this finding could play out in layman terms as follows :

We have tended to view a calm person as being a wise person; but these findings suggest rather that a calm person is in fact more likely to be smugly self-satisfied with his own rightness, and therefore less able to bring empathy and understanding to a problem.

Yes 

[Udayana]

I think we could summarise how this finding could play out in layman terms as follows :

We have tended to view a calm person as being a wise person; but these findings suggest rather, that a calm person is in fact more likely to be smugly self-satisfied with his own rightness, and therefore less able to bring empathy and understanding to a problem.

Bonkers

Sriram definitely has point here as practicing meditation and yoga (amongst other things) are associated with increased "vagal tone". The "ancients" had all the means necessary to find and research these effects. It is quite probable, given 200k years of "modern human" existence alone,  that they did - although, looking back, we just write off their understanding and related activities as ritual tribal or religious (ie superstitious) practice.

[torridon]

Bonkers

Sriram definitely has point here as practicing meditation and yoga (amongst other things) are associated with increased "vagal tone". The "ancients" had all the means necessary to find and research these effects. It is quite probable, given 200k years of "modern human" existence alone,  that they did - although, looking back, we just write off their understanding and related activities as ritual tribal or religious (ie superstitious) practice.

It's often the way with research, that new findings overturn long held intuitions.

[ippy]

Getting out of a tigers way is a standard 'fight or flight' response which is triggered by the survival instinct....which no doubt affects the release of adrenaline and the increase in heart rate.

But I don't think that is what the article refers to as 'wisdom'.

Sriram if the article as you say refers to wisdom, what made you start to write about it?

ippy   

[Sriram]

More accurately, the study finds that heart rate variability is a key factor leading to wisdom.  They never claim it to be the only one, nor the main one; rather it is a factor to be taken into account in conjunction with egocentrism, or self-distancing/self-immersion, in the words of the authors. Egocentrism is an underlying personality trait; we all lie somewhere on an egocentric spectrum. 

The key lesson to learn from this study is this : that when we attempt to think with empathy, to consider other people's point of view, those individuals with higher variability in resting heart rate are better able to overcome their natural predisposition to self-centred thinking, and therefore more wise and gracious.

You are not getting the point. Heart rate variability can be found in many other circumstances also. Athletes for example. So heart rate variability cannot be directly the cause of any wisdom. (Some kind of a physiological cause for wisdom!). How could you think that was so?

There are two things necessary for wisdom.

1. Lack of egocentricism, humanistic ideology.

2. Empathy, humility, love and compassion etc.

The first one is an ideology and comes from the mind  and the second comes from what we normally describe as the 'heart'. It has been known for ages that true wisdom and 'knowledge' comes from a balance of the head and the heart.

Refer to any spiritual or religious text and the matter of the 'head and the heart' will be mentioned. It is a common feature in Yoga and meditation.

The heart rate variation is nothing but a symptom of the heart (love, empathy, compassion) reacting and responding to our mental ideas and thoughts. Its about thoughts and feelings going in tandem.

[torridon]

You are not getting the point. Heart rate variability can be found in many other circumstances also. Athletes for example. So heart rate variability cannot be directly the cause of any wisdom. How could you think that was so?

It's not me that is saying that that is how it is; it is this piece of research that the thread is about.  This is the claim, it is not my claim, it is a novel insight derived through empirical means.  Having posted it up you seem to be arguing against it, refusing to accept its conclusions maybe because it does not fit with our intuitions and does not fit with ancient wisdom.  But that is the nature of research, we commission such studies to further our knowledge not merely to validate existing assumptions.  Science always challenges us to rethink, to consider new insights, that is how we grow in understanding.

[Stranger]

Having posted it up you seem to be arguing against it, refusing to accept its conclusions maybe because it does not fit with our intuitions and does not fit with ancient wisdom.

What a surprise! My guess is, he won't even have bothered to read it...

[Udayana]

...
Refer to any spiritual or religious text and the matter of the 'head and the heart' will be mentioned. It is a common feature in Yoga and meditation.

The heart rate variation is nothing but a symptom of the heart (love, empathy, compassion) reacting and responding to our mental ideas and thoughts. Its about thoughts and feelings going in tandem.

Metaphorically, yes but it doesn't mean that empathy etc physically originate in the heart.

The HRV is just used as a measure of vagal tone - ie health and efficiency of connections of the vagal nerve. This allows control of the supply of blood to various organs, in particular, supply to parts of the brain as needed.

[Sriram]

It's not me that is saying that that is how it is; it is this piece of research that the thread is about.  This is the claim, it is not my claim, it is a novel insight derived through empirical means.  Having posted it up you seem to be arguing against it, refusing to accept its conclusions maybe because it does not fit with our intuitions and does not fit with ancient wisdom.  But that is the nature of research, we commission such studies to further our knowledge not merely to validate existing assumptions.  Science always challenges us to rethink, to consider new insights, that is how we grow in understanding.

No..no. I am not challenging the results at all. I am only saying that the researchers have measured what they could (the heart rate variability). That does not mean that the HRV is directly responsible for the wisdom.  That would be a naive conclusion.

The HRV is due to the heart (our empathy, feelings, compassion) responding in tandem to our thoughts.

Let us say that a person is thinking of the poverty in the world.  If his  feelings of compassion do not match his thoughts....his HRV will be low. In other words his heart rate will not change. The person will be making a dispassionate and cold analysis of the poverty.

On the other hand if every time the person thinks of poverty in the world....he also feels great compassion and empathy....his heart rate will fluctuate and vary.   This will lead to wisdom.

So...all I am saying is that the HRV is only the externally measurable component....but the real stuff that generates the wisdom is the compassion and empathy in the heart.....that matches the mind.