Author Topic: Muslim Survey (Read 4206 times)

john · « **on:** April 11, 2016, 10:47:57 AM »

A programme (What Muslims Think) to be aired on Channel 4 at 10 pm on 13th April will discuss a recent survey which revealed worrying trends in the Muslim community;

1...52% think homosexuality should be illegal.
2...23% think Sharia law should be imposed in the UK
3...39% think wives should obey their husbands
4...31% think it is OK to have more than one wife
5...5% think it is OK to stone adulterers to death
6...4% Think suicide bombing is OK
7...34% only said they would report it if they knew people planning terrorist attacks.

Trevor Phillips the former chairman of Equality and Human Rights says the report is astonishing and troubling.

It seems to suggest that unlike other immigrant groups, Muslims are unlikely ever to integrate into society.

A must watch programme I suggest.

Brownie · « **Reply #1 on:** April 12, 2016, 02:10:24 PM »

I'll have to make a note of that for tomorrow, John, and watch it. I read about the survey in the Sunday Times supplement, Trevor Phillips at the helm.

However surveys can be misleading. Not everyone by any means will complete a survey and some who do will just put anything so not too much should be read into it.

Muslims have been integrated into UK society for yonks, it's only in recent years that fundamentalism and 'disaffection' has reared its head so militantly. The older generations certainly don't approve of and are trying their best to deal with it. It's not easy and I'm not sure surveys like this one, however interesting, are all that helpful.

Found this:
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/trevor-phillips-research-on-british-muslims-is-dangerous-and-wrong-no-wonder-islamophobia-is-on-the-a6980331.html

letstryagain · « **Reply #2 on:** April 12, 2016, 05:12:19 PM »

"Muslims have been integrated into UK society for yonks, it's only in recent years that fundamentalism and 'disaffection' has reared its head so militantly. The older generations certainly don't approve of and are trying their best to deal with it. It's not easy and I'm not sure surveys like this one, however interesting, are all that helpful."

I agree that the older generation don't approve, but the fact remains that their is a real threat from British Muslims who want to destroy our way of life and singing la la la will not eradicate that fact. The Independent article was a typical victimhood response from a muslim, his comments about the sample maybe correct but we do not find poor hindus Sikhs and poor whites wanting to kill do we?

The most concerning statistic from the survey was that only 34% would report an impending attack, if that does not dam the muslim community nothing does, it tells me that covering for islam is more important than human life.

Owlswing · « **Reply #3 on:** April 12, 2016, 05:47:14 PM »

Quote from: Brownie on April 12, 2016, 02:10:24 PM

However surveys can be misleading. Not everyone by any means will complete a survey and some who do will just put anything so not too much should be read into it.

The problem here, Brownie, is the fact that, according to the report that I read, the survey was done by face-to-face interviews and not by a paper tick-in-the-box.

Brownie · « **Reply #4 on:** April 12, 2016, 05:59:36 PM »

Maybe so but people put on the spot don't always tell the entire truth and, anyway, was the survey conducted on a true random sample of Muslims in Britain? I'll re-read the article and watch tomorrow's Ch4 programme for more detail.

We cannot be naive about Muslim extremism, it is undeniably dangerous, but at the same time we can't spend our lives mistrusting our neighbour. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what we can do about it?

Hope · « **Reply #5 on:** April 12, 2016, 07:06:53 PM »

Quote from: letstryagain on April 12, 2016, 05:12:19 PM

I agree that the older generation don't approve, but the fact remains that their is a real threat from British Muslims who want to destroy our way of life and singing la la la will not eradicate that fact. The Independent article was a typical victimhood response from a muslim, his comments about the sample maybe correct but we do not find poor hindus Sikhs and poor whites wanting to kill do we?

lta, the same can be said of a number of groupings in the UK. For instance, the National Front/BNP, the English Defence League, arguably the UK Independence Party; at a different level, one could argue that the SNP wants to the same. Simply blaming the Muslims is to turn a blind eye to huge problems across society - something that, sadly, I have seen all too much of over the past 30-odd years.

Quote

The most concerning statistic from the survey was that only 34% would report an impending attack, if that does not dam the muslim community nothing does, it tells me that covering for islam is more important than human life.

That, of course, assumes - as other reports suggest - that said figure is reliable.

On the day after 9/11, the first 2 lessons I took at the school I was working as a supply teacher at were RE lessons, and in both classes, the vast majority were from Muslim families (about 95%). About 50% felt that the attacks had been justified; about 50% felt that they hadn't been. We had a really interesting debate - as opposed to a mere discussion and - yes, it got a bit heated. However, I was thankful that I'd had 2 groups of Muslim pupils first up that day because all the indigenous kids did that day was whine.

letstryagain · « **Reply #6 on:** April 12, 2016, 07:56:46 PM »

"lta, the same can be said of a number of groupings in the UK. For instance, the National Front/BNP, the English Defence League, arguably the UK Independence Party; at a different level, one could argue that the SNP wants to the same. Simply blaming the Muslims is to turn a blind eye to huge problems across society - something that, sadly, I have seen all too much of over the past 30-odd years."

Hope, as odious as most of the groups you mention, they do not want to change our way of life and they certainly don't want to blow us to Kingdom come. In fact you could argue they want to revert to a time that almost certainly did not exist and to try and lump them with these extremists weakens your argument

"That, of course, assumes - as other reports suggest - that said figure is reliable.

On the day after 9/11, the first 2 lessons I took at the school I was working as a supply teacher at were RE lessons, and in both classes, the vast majority were from Muslim families (about 95%). About 50% felt that the attacks had been justified; about 50% felt that they hadn't been. We had a really interesting debate - as opposed to a mere discussion and - yes, it got a bit heated. However, I was thankful that I'd had 2 groups of Muslim pupils first up that day because all the indigenous kids did that day was whine."

I really don't want to be rude but on the one hand you challenge the figure and there is much that could be checked I agree, but then you bring forward your own evidence, albeit school children that sort of supports it and in fact suggests that it is understated. I have heard an anecdotal story (an not from a rabid crazy either) that whilst in a largely muslim worker factory in the midlands that when the news came through about 7/7 they cheered, hardly encouraging that is it

I agree we do not want be worrying about our neighbour but part of the reason why we are here now, where soldiers are asked to remove uniforms because it might offend and other issues is because we were too timid to state that our civilisation that honours free speech, women, education and accepts gays is better than a mindset that is 1400 years old, it might be imperialistic in the mind of the left but it might have made for a society at peace with itself. Just one thought, would you care to speculate whilst we don't have Sikh suicide bombers or hindus did we treat them better or did they just take advantage of what our society had to offer.

JP · « **Reply #7 on:** April 12, 2016, 09:56:08 PM »

No neet to integrate. Think of an institution and then stick Islamic in front of it. That means parallel lives including a legal system. Add to this the baggage of Pakistani tribal village mentality ( not my words but from a discussion I had a long time ago with an ex Muslim ) and pow, do you not feel culturally enriched. With all this in place no need for any mixing with the unbelievers.

The Accountant, OBE, KC · « **Reply #8 on:** April 12, 2016, 11:49:10 PM »

Quote from: john on April 11, 2016, 10:47:57 AM

A programme (What Muslims Think) to be aired on Channel 4 at 10 pm on 13th April will discuss a recent survey which revealed worrying trends in the Muslim community;

1...52% think homosexuality should be illegal.
2...23% think Sharia law should be imposed in the UK
3...39% think wives should obey their husbands
4...31% think it is OK to have more than one wife
5...5% think it is OK to stone adulterers to death
6...4% Think suicide bombing is OK
7...34% only said they would report it if they knew people planning terrorist attacks.

Trevor Phillips the former chairman of Equality and Human Rights says the report is astonishing and troubling.

It seems to suggest that unlike other immigrant groups, Muslims are unlikely ever to integrate into society.

A must watch programme I suggest.

MCB said a lot of the people polled were Muslims in deprived areas so the results aren't representative of British Muslims, but I agree that there are certain areas in Britain where Muslims should do more to integrate.

Could you be a little more specific - "34% would report it if they knew people planning terrorist attacks"....attacks where? Here in the UK? Or do they mean this is like US / UK / Russian/ Iranian / Saudi government intelligence agencies supporting groups that carry out attacks in Syria? Maybe they should carry out another poll but this time question intelligence agency staff about what they would report about planned attacks to try and topple governments.

letstryagain · « **Reply #9 on:** April 13, 2016, 10:36:31 AM »

"MCB said a lot of the people polled were Muslims in deprived areas so the results aren't representative of British Muslims, but I agree that there are certain areas in Britain where Muslims should do more to integrate"

Gabriella a fair point but it does not explain why other religious groups living in deprived communities apparently do not feel the same. Could it be that some of the teachings in Islam (although perhaps distorted) allow a mechanism to blame others? Could it be that these communities are partially deprived because by withdrawing from the "west" they have not embraced the opportunities particularly in education that are available to improve their life chances.

The Accountant, OBE, KC · « **Reply #10 on:** April 13, 2016, 12:30:17 PM »

I don't have the information or evidence to support a view on whether other communities feel angry - the survey questions posted seem to be about moral values rather than anger?

For me to comment on a comparison of anger in different communities, I think you would have to first pick a non-Muslim country where there are British or US troops or our intelligence agencies operating on their soil in a similar way as the Middle East e.g. supporting dictatorships, trying to secure access to a valuable resource like oil, trying to make sure that the country does not form close alliances with Russia or are not using petrodollars for purposes that are against the regional interests of the various super powers. That country would need to have had its infrastructure bombed and its people living a difficult, chaotic existence, lacking safety, security, law and order, with limited access to food, clean water, healthcare, schools, jobs etc

I don't think surveys can capture the complexity of people's opinions or what motivates people to hold the opinions that they do. I think the survey is a clumsy way of highlighting and addressing issues in certain parts of the Muslim community - and media headlines are usually designed to sensationalise in order to capture people's attention. It will probably therefore help the producers get higher ratings for their show.

Yes I think withdrawing from education is a problem for some Muslims, especially in deprived areas. I tend to listen to talks by people like Nom Ali Khan on the Internet, who supports education and does not peddle anger and blame - he's not a Muslim version of Donald Trump.

JP · « **Reply #11 on:** April 13, 2016, 01:38:56 PM »

So integration does not take place because of foreign policy? Blowing people up might but blending into society on a day to day basis, I suspect, has more to do with the separatism of Islam (us and them, believer - non believer), ethnic background, culture, language, and country of origin, focusing on things back "home" as opposed to where they live. I have had some very interesting discussion with people who have left the fold about what is often said "behind closed doors" about the west and the general non Muslim population.

Also, what a surprise, the MCB question the validity of the data, surveys are not representative...... blah, blah, blah.

Quote

The former head of Britain's Equalities and Human Rights Commission (EHRC), Trevor Phillips, has admitted he "got almost everything wrong" regarding immigration in a new report, claiming Muslims are creating "nations within nations" in the West.

Phillips says followers of Islam hold very different values from the rest of society and many want to lead separate lives.

Quote

"Indeed, a significant minority of Britain's three million Muslims consider us a nation of such low morals that they would rather live more separately from their non-Muslim countrymen, preferably under sharia law.

See the link, it sums it up quite nicely, nations within nations.

http://europe.newsweek.com/muslims-are-creating-nations-within-nations-says-former-head-uk-equalities-446163?rm=eu

The Accountant, OBE, KC · « **Reply #12 on:** April 13, 2016, 04:02:29 PM »

Quote from: JP on April 13, 2016, 01:38:56 PM

So integration does not take place because of foreign policy? Blowing people up might but blending into society on a day to day basis, I suspect, has more to do with the separatism of Islam (us and them, believer - non believer), ethnic background, culture, language, and country of origin, focusing on things back "home" as opposed to where they live. I have had some very interesting discussion with people who have left the fold about what is often said "behind closed doors" about the west and the general non Muslim population.

Also, what a surprise, the MCB question the validity of the data, surveys are not representative...... blah, blah, blah.

See the link, it sums it up quite nicely, nations within nations.

http://europe.newsweek.com/muslims-are-creating-nations-within-nations-says-former-head-uk-equalities-446163?rm=eu

Foreign policy was in relation to a comparison of anger in different communities.

Yes because Muslims living in deprived areas probably don't want to integrate with people around them if there is a lot of juvenile crime, alcoholism, drugs, lack of respect for elders, kids roaming the streets, single parent families, promiscuity, gangs etc.

Surveys in relatively well-off areas probably show a much greater willingness to integrate - though as a parent, every time I am told what my daughter's friends are doing as some kind of argument for being allowed to do the same, I do say that's their culture, not ours - and that's in relation to tame stuff like room being excessively messy, clothes and towel dropped on the floor, sleeping all morning, not studying, disrespectful attitude to parents. My daughter is the one using culture as an excuse for unwanted behaviour, so it's not surprising if in some areas there is a suspicion about integrating.

The Accountant, OBE, KC · « **Reply #13 on:** April 13, 2016, 05:34:08 PM »

Jon Stewart's take on Muslim integration

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSTywVwZCjw

dadvokat · « **Reply #14 on:** April 13, 2016, 05:52:23 PM »

Trevor Phillips is of course correct, multiculturalism is a failed experiment which basically forced us to respect ignorance.

Trevor Phillips was an exponent of multiculturalism which he now recognises is a failed experiment and has realised how the UK has tolerated the most backward and primitive of practices like FGM, forced marriage, honour killings, women dressed in faceless masks and cloaks and first cousin marriages resulting in recessive inherited disorders. Let's hope it's not too late before this nation within a nation destroys us.

dadvokat · « **Reply #15 on:** April 13, 2016, 05:53:32 PM »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2016/04/12/why-the-icm-poll-of-british-muslims-shows-we-need-to-defend-our/

JP · « **Reply #16 on:** April 13, 2016, 08:23:02 PM »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06gqr66

The Deobandis episode 1. Radio 4

Interesting young lady towards the end who walked away from it all. Admitted to be well in her teens before she relised there were people out there who did not believe in God. Shock. Such was the brainwashing

Anyway, it discusses the insular, women serve men and must cover up type. Apparantly 40% of the mosques in the UK are from this branch of Islam so we can imaginr the sort of message preached within those walls.

The Accountant, OBE, KC · « **Reply #17 on:** April 13, 2016, 10:23:40 PM »

Hmm....well I suggested to my Muslim husband that he better integrate and asked him where he had hidden his other wife. He said due to integration she is actually his mistress, not a wife.

Brownie · « **Reply #18 on:** April 14, 2016, 08:01:17 AM »

I watched the programme which was quite interesting but I recorded it and will watch it again before saying much, I want to make sure I've completely ''got it''. One thing that struck me was the people surveyed seemed not, generally, to be from a well educated strata of society, in contrast to (most of) those who were interviewed and shown speaking in the programme, who did appear well educated. There must be some relevance to this as it was so obvious as to strike me and I'm not known for being overly observant.
Anyway I'll watch it again in case I've missed something and am hoping to read others' comments on here.

JP · « **Reply #19 on:** April 14, 2016, 10:40:17 AM »

Quote from: Gabriella on April 13, 2016, 10:23:40 PM

Hmm....well I suggested to my Muslim husband that he better integrate and asked him where he had hidden his other wife. He said due to integration she is actually his mistress, not a wife.

That's odd, because I suggested to my wife that we really need to see what it's like to be Muslim so I said she could start wearing a bin liner over her head when we had company and I was going to get another couple of women to move in with us as I was the boss and that was what I wanted, so she better get used to sharing and looking after me a bit better otherwise she would drop down the preference list.

No respect that woman, she never missed a step, car keys in hand off she went shopping.

Not to be outdone, I put the kettle on and had a chocolate biscuit.

JP · « **Reply #20 on:** April 14, 2016, 10:42:32 AM »

Quote from: Brownie on April 14, 2016, 08:01:17 AM

I watched the programme which was quite interesting but I recorded it and will watch it again before saying much, I want to make sure I've completely ''got it''. One thing that struck me was the people surveyed seemed not, generally, to be from a well educated strata of society, in contrast to (most of) those who were interviewed and shown speaking in the programme, who did appear well educated. There must be some relevance to this as it was so obvious as to strike me and I'm not known for being overly observant.
Anyway I'll watch it again in case I've missed something and am hoping to read others' comments on here.

The bits I saw regarding the survey explained the methodology, but all the face to face interview shots were tagged as recreations? As far as I'm aware no actual interviews were shown.

The Accountant, OBE, KC · « **Reply #21 on:** April 14, 2016, 10:50:59 AM »

Quote from: JP on April 14, 2016, 10:40:17 AM

That's odd, because I suggested to my wife that we really need to see what it's like to be Muslim so I said she could start wearing a bin liner over her head when we had company and I was going to get another couple of women to move in with us as I was the boss and that was what I wanted, so she better get used to sharing and looking after me a bit better otherwise she would drop down the preference list.

No respect that woman, she never missed a step, car keys in hand off she went shopping.

Not to be outdone, I put the kettle on and had a chocolate biscuit.

Ha,ha - did you see the Jon Stewart clip I posted of how scary a scarf becomes when it's around someon's head instead of around their neck?

Well, as the programme said, there are Muslim women who don't want their husbands under their feet all the time and are happy when he spends time with the 2nd wife - bit like the non-Muslim wife who turns a blind eye to the mistress.

If it's consensual it's up to them. There might be other administrative reasons for not making polygyny legal in Britain - tax etc.

The Accountant, OBE, KC · « **Reply #22 on:** April 14, 2016, 11:21:13 AM »

Quote from: JP on April 14, 2016, 10:42:32 AM

The bits I saw regarding the survey explained the methodology, but all the face to face interview shots were tagged as recreations? As far as I'm aware no actual interviews were shown.

Brownie means the Muslim contributors who spoke

The programme made a number of assertions that couldn't be backed up with evidence:

For example, it said that the survey was representative of half the Muslim population in Britain and therefore revealed the private thoughts of at least half the Muslim population, regardless of what Muslims actually said in public, and furthermore that the survey was unlikely to be far out of line in representing the private thoughts of the other half of the Muslim population.

But then again, the programme did say it had used methods that give the greatest degree of accuracy in surveys compared to other methods, as opposed to guaranteeing that the survey was accurate.

Maybe the survey would have been less skewed if they had interviewed Muslims in Kensinton as well as Luton - maybe like the ones who attend this Islamic centre:

Quote

MCB Congratulates First Ever Woman to Lead Established British Islamic Centre
17th October 2014

The Muslim Council of Britain today congratulated and welcomed the appointment of Ms Saleha Islam who has been appointed Director of the Al-Manaar Muslim Cultural Heritage Centre in Kensington, West London.

Saleha Islam is perhaps the first woman to manage an established and thriving British Islamic centre. Ms Islam comes with deep experience of the Muslim community, most recently as CEO of the Muslim Youth Helpline. As a member of the Muslim Council of Britain’s National Council, Saleha Islam has given important advice to help guide the MCB’s work.

The centre Ms Islam now leads was officially opened by the Prince of Wales in May 2001. The centre serves a large, multicultural Muslim community with over 5,000 users a week. In addition to beautiful prayer facilities, the centre also has a huge range of cultural, social and educational projects for both the Muslim and non-Muslim community.

The Accountant, OBE, KC · « **Reply #23 on:** April 14, 2016, 11:37:17 AM »

The programme claims 4% of the Muslims polled in areas like Luton are sympathetic to terrorist acts to fight injustice or achieve political aims - and claims that represents 4% of the 3 million Muslims in Britain - and emphasised that this was about 100,000 Muslims.

The programme also said 1% of non- Muslims surveyed are sympathetic to terrorism - but described that as a handful of people?? There are maybe about 57 million non-Muslims in Britain. 1% of that is 570,000 - so if the survey is accurate there are 570,000 non-Muslims in Britain sympathising with terrorism. Does that worry anyone?

Brownie · « **Reply #24 on:** April 14, 2016, 12:31:58 PM »

Yes it is worrying Gabriella but I wonder if people were strictly truthful when answering the questions. What worries me more is that a survey of this type reinforces stereotypes.

I did mean, "the Muslim contributors who spoke'' when I talked about those shown. They certainly had different opinions to those represented by the survey.

Luton doesn't strike me as a particularly deprived area, a bit dingy but not slummy. ''Respectable working class'' is how it would have been described years ago and that fits.

News:

Author Topic: Muslim Survey (Read 4206 times)