Are there vile homophobic views on this forum

[Hope]

The most terrible injustice is that the CofE doesn't allow freedom of conscience on this. It's appalling. And it's s big reason why liberals are quitting the church.

RHi, this particular topic comes fairly low down on the list of why liberals are leaving the CofE.  Most of them leave because of the theological differences they have with the church over the core issues of Christianity - whether Jesus is God or just a man; did Jesus simply die, or did he rise again on the 3rd day; etc. (eg, all the topics that get discussed her). OK, abortion, the role of women, the status of homosexual relationships, etc. often come into the mix, but then 'freedom of conscience' isn't the issue; its theology.

Incidentally, why should the Church - or any other organisation for that matter - allow 'freedom of conscience' on a fundamental principle, whatever that principle might be?  Are you suggesting that the Church, or a secular employer should allow 'freedom of conscience' on the of taking of - say - stationery that the company has paid for.

[Rhiannon]

Don't be idiotic, Hope. Stealing is not the same as blessing a loving relationship.

Liberals don't care much about theological differences - that's what makes them liberals to start with. I left the church because of the gay issue. A local vicar did. Some of my friends have. For many it has been the straw that broke the camel's back.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Gay Issue,

Get yer Gay Issue here, just finished catching up on Paul O'Grady's excellent little documentary on the Sally Ann, no gays allowed, no sex outside marriage, no smoking, no drinking, so something me, Trent and Leonard have in common, we can't wear the Sally Ann uniform we can't be soldiers of Christ, oh! we can help, we are allowed to get our hands dirty but we can't wear the uniform, sad, as Mr O'Grady points out, they are missing a trick.

On the up side, apart from their stupid rules, what a truly wonderful organisation, onward you Christian Soldiers

Gonnagle.

[Leonard James]

Dear Gay Issue,

Get yer Gay Issue here, just finished catching up on Paul O'Grady's excellent little documentary on the Sally Ann, no gays allowed, no sex outside marriage, no smoking, no drinking, so something me, Trent and Leonard have in common, we can't wear the Sally Ann uniform we can't be soldiers of Christ, oh! we can help, we are allowed to get our hands dirty but we can't wear the uniform, sad, as Mr O'Grady points out, they are missing a trick.

On the up side, apart from their stupid rules, what a truly wonderful organisation, onward you Christian Soldiers

Gonnagle.

Yes, Gonners, and to misquote an ancient Lyle's Golden syrup advert, "out of the savage comes forth sweetness".

[Shaker]

Don't be idiotic, Hope. Stealing is not the same as blessing a loving relationship.

Stealing isn't but murder is, apparently

[Hope]

Don't be idiotic, Hope. Stealing is not the same as blessing a loving relationship.

That's an opinion you are perfectly entitled to hold, Rhi.  Since there is nothing conclusive on either side of the debate, I'm equally entitled to my opinion that homosexual relationships are sinful - in exactly the same way that many other actions are - either 'serious' or 'minor' from the perspective of human society.  To take a direct parallel, I believe that the Bible teaches that a loving heterosexual relationship that takes place outside of marriage is no more or less sinful than a homosexual relationshi - and, that from God's perspective, murder and theft are equally 'sin'.  He doesn't delineate seriousness, as they are all serious in his eyes (or so the Bible indicates).

Liberals don't care much about theological differences - that's what makes them liberals to start with. I left the church because of the gay issue. A local vicar did. Some of my friends have. For many it has been the straw that broke the camel's back.

Clearly, you know a very different selection of liberal Christians to that which I know. 

[Hope]

Stealing isn't but as is murder is, apparently

Corrected to reflect the point that you were clearly trying to make - that this is what Hope understands the Bible to teach.

[Rhiannon]

That's an opinion you are perfectly entitled to hold, Rhi.  Since there is nothing conclusive on either side of the debate, I'm equally entitled to my opinion that homosexual relationships are sinful - in exactly the same way that many other actions are - either 'serious' or 'minor' from the perspective of human society.  To take a direct parallel, I believe that the Bible teaches that a loving heterosexual relationship that takes place outside of marriage is no more or less sinful than a homosexual relationshi - and, that from God's perspective, murder and theft are equally 'sin'.  He doesn't delineate seriousness, as they are all serious in his eyes (or so the Bible indicates).
Clearly, you know a very different selection of liberal Christians to that which I know.

And yet I don't see the churches asking for a ban on cohabiting couples being allowed to marry in church. Why is that?

[Rhiannon]

Corrected to reflect the point that you were clearly trying to make - that this is what Hope understands the Bible to teach.

And you don't allow for the possibility that your understanding could be wrong?

[Hope]

And you don't allow for the possibility that your understanding could be wrong?

Of course I do, but over 30 years of discussing the issue, I've yet to see or hear an argument that gets anywhere near to showing, let alone proving, that it is.  I've stated this on more than one occasion, Rhi, and all I get is abuse for saying it.

The nearest I've got to evidence that it is wrong was about 8 years ago on another internet forum I used to belong to when someone I hugely respected explained his understanding as someone who was still not absolutely certain, but was moving towards the idea of homosexual relationships being OK from a moral and ethical (and Christian) position.  Sadly, most of what he posted was removed by a moderator who was/is so pro-gay that even that level of understanding was unacceptable to them.  Fortunately, my mate and I used to attend Greenbelt together and debate this and other matters deep into the night over glasses of wine, cider and whisky (not necessarily in combination!!).  Sadly, my mate died of a heart attack 3 (or is it 4) years ago.  I miss him and his wisdom greatly.

[Rhiannon]

It's easy, Hope.

The Christian God is the God of love who is merciful and compassionate. Gay relationships are equally loving to straight ones. Therefore they are created by and/or blessed by the God of love. And if it turns out you are wrong about that because you acted from a place of love and compassion for your fellow human beings, and Gid does disapprove, then your compassionate and merciful God will forgive you.

[Leonard James]

It's easy, Hope.

The Christian God is the God of love who is merciful and compassionate. Gay relationships are equally loving to straight ones. Therefore they are created by and/or blessed by the God of love. And if it turns out you are wrong about that because you acted from a place of love and compassion for your fellow human beings, and God does disapprove, then your compassionate and merciful God will forgive you.

Live with it ... it's love, and love rules!

[Hope]

It's easy, Hope.

The Christian God is the God of love who is merciful and compassionate. Gay relationships are equally loving to straight ones. Therefore they are created by and/or blessed by the God of love. And if it turns out you are wrong about that because you acted from a place of love and compassion for your fellow human beings, and Gid does disapprove, then your compassionate and merciful God will forgive you.

Your entitled to your opinion, Rhi, but as this same argument is used by polyamorists and others, I'm afraid I take it with a pinch of salt.

[Rhiannon]

Your entitled to your opinion, Rhi, but as this same argument is used by polyamorists and others, I'm afraid I take it with a pinch of salt.

If polyamorous relationships are freely entered into and consensual I don't see them as any of my business. But that isn't what we are discussing. We're discussing gay and bi couples who want the same thing that you have been entitled to for your entire adult life - the right to have a loving, faithful, monogamous relationship with or without marriage.

What is it about gay relationships that you think is so different to your own?

[trippymonkey]

No 'DIRECT' babies ?!!?!? And isn't this what it's ALL about - BREEDING & spreading !?!?!!?!?
Just look at the religions that oppose gay relationships. Speaks for itself !!!

[Shaker]

Of course I do, but over 30 years of discussing the issue, I've yet to see or hear an argument that gets anywhere near to showing, let alone proving, that it is.

There's today's NPF.

I've stated this on more than one occasion, Rhi, and all I get is abuse for saying it.

You haven't received abuse because that would be against the rules. What you have received and do receive, consistently, is valid criticism about the ugliness of your obnoxious views with regard to homosexuality (which, lest we forget, have led to your suspension), which is vastly less than you actually deserve.

If you want to play the victim card and call that abuse that's your lookout - the mods clearly don't agree with you.

[floo]

It is people who think homosexuality is abnormal and wrong who are abusive, not those who criticise them for their bigotry.

[ippy]

Are there vile homophobic views being expressed on this forum, I would have thought that the answer is of course there are.

What makes it worse, these vile individuals spend so much time trying to, as they think,  justify their small minded utterly distasteful views for which they only have excuses, no reasoned or logical reason to be so obnoxious, to other people of equal worth to all. (More, I suspect, of this the superiority of religious views over everything Pov).

ippy

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

Are there vile homophobic views being expressed on this forum, I would have thought that the answer is of course there are.

Not according to Sassy. Apparently I am the only one who thinks so.

[Brownie]

Oh play another tune.  You are beginning to sound petulant.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

Oh play another tune.  You are beginning to sound petulant.

I don't care for people who lie, make factually incorrect statements and then can't admit it when they are shown to be wrong.

You might think that childish but not everyone does.



Modification****************************************************************

Although maybe you are right. I have probably made my point.

[Leonard James]

The only people who think that homosexual sex between two loving adults is wrong are those who have been told it is, and they are too weak-minded to think for themselves about why it should be considered wrong.

[Aruntraveller]

The only people who think that homosexual sex between two loving adults is wrong are those who have been told it is, and they are too weak-minded to think for themselves about why it should be considered wrong.

But you are quite wrong Len - in my 40 years of posing on message boards I have supplied plenty of evidence as to why staring the one-eyed snake in the face is immoral and damaging to society. I have posted hundreds of links that show that homosexuality; however I am unable to repost them because they have mysteriously gone missing (probably the gay mafia); is the downfall of civilisation and I personally know the gay population of the world and not one of them is in favour of gay marriage and none of them wanted the liberalisation of gay laws. *

* Posted to save someone the bother.

[Shaker]

Heh 

[Rhiannon]

Trent, you forgot all the atheist sciencey scientists who have reasons based on sciencey things for thinking that gay people shouldn't be allowed. He knows them too.