Are there vile homophobic views on this forum

[Aruntraveller]

Not hurting me - but he is a twisty turny hater.

[Bubbles]

I think you know the answer to that one.

Is that because you think there is only one way to read Hope's posts? In a negative way?

I don't think I see the same things in his posts, as some of you do.

I don't agree with what he says, but I just see a different opinion.

[Aruntraveller]

Is that because you think there is only one way to read Hope's posts? In a negative way?

I don't think I see the same things in his posts, as some of you do.

I don't agree with what he says, but I just see a different opinion.

Is there an alternative way of reading for instance:

Homosexual relationships are bad for society.

Are Homosexuals should be punished for their sins.

He is a twisty turny hater.

[Bubbles]

Not hurting me - but he is a twisty turny hater.

I think he is trying to explain something about the Christian concept of hate the sin love the sinner , and people are just taking hold of the negative concepts they have drawn from it.

I don't see Hopes posts as " hateful"  either that or I've read the wrong ones or missed some.

[Shaker]

I don't see Hopes posts as " hateful"  either that or I've read the wrong ones or missed some.

Easily done - the fouler ones tend to be removed.

[Bubbles]

Is there an alternative way of reading for instance:

Homosexual relationships are bad for society.

Are Homosexuals should be punished for their sins.

He is a twisty turny hater.

Yes, I think there are alternative ways of seeing things.

Lots of people think that different things are bad for society.

Being hateful takes a bit more than that.

An example would be a Muslim women wearing a niquab for modesty.

We have quite a few of those, near me.

I could get offended that they think my form of dressing is immodest and it might well be some of them see my values as being bad for society.

That's their opinion.

What people think is bad for society is almost always offensive to the group it is aimed at.

I achieve nothing by hating back. If she holds that opinion but accepts I don't and doesn't take it further it's just an opinion.



If you take out the emotion, the things that matter IMO are that such views are not dictated in society,  passed as laws, to the harm of various groups in society.

I guess I'm a bit strange in that I would argue for your right to live as you do without harrassment, but also for Hope to hold his opinion or the Muslim woman to think my dress is immoral and her right to wear a niquab.

I think it more important to choose my battles.

I don't worry because they hold that opinion, I worry more in case they get to victimise groups of people because of it.

Which although I have never argued or really considered the idea  for a separation of religion and state, I can see it could be a good idea on some fronts.

I don't believe in making everyone the same, or battling to make people the same.

I think I believe in diversity of opinion rather than one right way of seeing things.

I do see that we do need to protect society and groups within it from becoming persecuted by certain opinions becoming law.

I think because I believe in diversity, rather than conformity, it can often make it seem I always agree with those I appear to be defending, but that isn't always so.

I think that's why I am more tolerant of views others find vile. 

Conformity is what groups like Isis do.

I'd rather people just agreed to disagree and stopped trying to make everyone else the same and hold the same POV.

We don't need laws to tell us what to think, just to control undesirable behaviour that is hateful.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Trent,

Not hurting you.

A very strange thing for a gay man to say, Hope is certainly hurting me, he purports to being a Christian, I am a Christian, so his views are seen as my views.

Oh you are a Christian, then you believe that homosexuality is wrong.

Of course on this forum I hope that no one thinks that about me but in the big wide world I need to explain myself.

What about a homosexual Christian, a man can't be in a sexual relationship with another man and be a Christian, this is a big thing, some Church leaders are saying you can't experience Gods love if you are homosexual, to me that is vile, a human being pointing the finger for God, shameful and against the teachings of Jesus.

Homophobic thought is hurting you and me, it perpetuates the myth that you can be somehow fixed or in extreme circumstances that homosexuals are fair game for bully, rape, murder.

Homophobic thought also takes the focus away from what Christians are all about, spreading the Gospel.

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

Homophobic thought needs to be put under the spotlight, treated as a disease of the mind, it is wrong, we need to stop the disease spreading, education is the way forward.

Gonnagle.

[Shaker]

Superb post Gonnicles. The first paragraph is especially to the point.

[Aruntraveller]

Gonners

Not hurting you.

Not hurting me in the same way that we all have a choice to ignore the negatives in this world. And tbh Hope is a very small fly in the ointment that is my life. I have bigger worries than a small minded hypocrite who posts on a MB.

Over years (going back to the Beeb) I've tried to point out to this poor man his mistaken beliefs over gay people. He is immovable on this matter. SO what to do? I have to move on.

He is a twisty turny immovable hater -  that's all I need to know from this point on.

I appreciate your thoughtfulness on this matter which I know has not been easy for you - but neither you nor I, nor dare I say it God him/herself (should God exist) is going to change the pathetic sad views that Hope holds.

There is more than religion driving his distaste, hatred, bigotry - I'm not sure which it is - or if it's all three - but me, I think he enjoys it. He is clearly more obsessed with homosexuality than any other poster currently on this board. His knowledge is pre-eminent on the subject - the number of papers he's read, gay people he's known, meetings he's been to, even supporting the changes of laws at one time. All quite astonishing things to have done if one were gay, but if you are not even more astonishing - but then fitting that in around teaching and living in Nepal and building railways and saving the world.

Well what can I say the man wears his underpants over his trousers.

[Rhiannon]

Another one appreciating Gonner's post here.

My mother used to be on the board of an AIDS charity; she had to work to win the trust of the people she worked with because she wore a cross and they were used to Christians being foul to them.

[Shaker]

... and a gold star for trent while we're at it 

[Rhiannon]

... and a gold star for trent while we're at it 

Seconded.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Trent,

There is more than religion driving his distaste, hatred, bigotry - I'm not sure which it is - or if it's all three - but me, I think the man has issues.

I have been thinking about the why, now it is only a little theory of mine, but is it that they see it as some kind of attack on their religion, I am remind of the time evolution was put on trial, in America, "I'am no kin to a monkey and a monkey is no kin to me" I am told this was one of the reasons for the rise in fundamentalism, are we seeing something similar.

Only a thought

Gonnagle.

[Rhiannon]

I don't see how that explains the lack of humanity, Gonners.

[floo]

Is that because you think there is only one way to read Hope's posts? In a negative way?

I don't think I see the same things in his posts, as some of you do.

I don't agree with what he says, but I just see a different opinion.

There is nothing good and positive about his opinions, which can used in an abusive manner by some.

[Shaker]

Dear Trent,

I have been thinking about the why, now it is only a little theory of mine, but is it that they see it as some kind of attack on their religion, I am remind of the time evolution was put on trial, in America, "I'am no kin to a monkey and a monkey is no kin to me" I am told this was one of the reasons for the rise in fundamentalism, are we seeing something similar.

Only a thought

Gonnagle.

I can certainly see how and why evolution threatens a literalistic interpretation of religion - it does -, but the private lives and the human rights of a small section of the population? Strikes me that this is only a threat to the desire and the ability to discriminate in law, surely.

[Rhiannon]

It's scapegoating, pure and simple. You can draw parallels with the way some elements within Anglo-Catholicism treated women priests as though they were unclean; in their rage against losing influence they had to dehumanise those that it favoured.

I think that this is what is happening here; as Christianity is pushed farther to the margins on every level in society so some within it vent their fury on those it perceives as benefitting from that.

[Bubbles]

It's scapegoating, pure and simple. You can draw parallels with the way some elements within Anglo-Catholicism treated women priests as though they were unclean; in their rage against losing influence they had to dehumanise those that it favoured.

I think that this is what is happening here; as Christianity is pushed farther to the margins on every level in society so some within it vent their fury on those it perceives as benefitting from that.

Or that society is scapegoating Christians who don't pick up on the cues to conform to what the thought  on things, generally are.

An attempt to force everyone to conform ( I've started a thread on ethics and free thought which hopefully be broader than homosexuality) trying to make everyone think alike.

Some people in Religions see it as an attack on their morals and continuance of their values.

To make them '" in the world" I think the jargon goes 

Some see it as a wedge being put between their faith God, and to entice them into worldly ways.

[Brownie]

Is Hope hurting other people? Or is he just expressing his POV ?

He's expressing his opinion, imo.  I don't see anything hurtful or hateful in Hope's posts and I study them very closely since the last time this came up a short while back.  It isn't just because he's not hurtful to me personally either because I think I'm sensitive to the feelings of others.  However Shaker says the worst posts are removed - so how can we tell?

Would another poster be hurt if I said I didn't agree with them because of my interpretation of the Christian faith?  I sincerely hope not.  A fellow Christian would more likely be upset by my opinions, that has happened more than once (not on here).

This is beyond me, I've said it before, and perhaps I ought to leave this subject alone because I've said quite often what my opinions are;  Hope would not agree with them but that's fine, he doesn't have to agree with me.  This is not a forum for people sharing the same views.

If he's that bad he should be banned, but if that happened others who say stupid, ignorant things - embarrassing to other Christians - would have to be banned too.

[Rhiannon]

Or that society is scapegoating Christians who don't pick up on the cues to conform to what the thought  on things, generally are.

An attempt to force everyone to conform ( I've started a thread on ethics and free thought which hopefully be broader than homosexuality) trying to make everyone think alike.

Some people in Religions see it as an attack on their morals and continuance of their values.

To make them '" in the world" I think the jargon goes 

Some see it as a wedge being put between their faith God, and to entice them into worldly ways.

Hope has a choice over whether to express his vile views or not. It doesn't damage him or hurt him in any way to live and let live.

He is incapable of exercising that choice in order to spare not only gay people but his fellow Christians from hate and hurt.

This is a message board for adults. If Hope wishes to exercise his right to
state the views that he holds then others have the right to counter them. And if he lies and distorts the truth and makes claims that he can't substantiate then others have the right to pull him up on it.

[Bubbles]

Hope has a choice over whether to express his vile views or not. It doesn't damage him or hurt him in any way to live and let live.

He is incapable of exercising that choice in order to spare not only gay people but his fellow Christians from hate and hurt.

This is a message board for adults. If Hope wishes to exercise his right to
state the views that he holds then others have the right to counter them. And if he lies and distorts the truth and makes claims that he can't substantiate then others have the right to pull him up on it.

That's very true, but someone's firmly held belief, tactfully put as possible, is just an opinion.

People can hold views that others find vile and also live and let live.

It sounds more like some people here are saying Hope should not be allowed to express a POV,  others disagree with.

That's a different matter.

[Nearly Sane]

That's very true, but someone's firmly held belief, tactfully put as possible, is just an opinion.

It sounds more like some people here are saying Hope should not be allowed to express a POV others disagree with.

That's a different matter.

Could you point to some posts which seem to say that to you?

[Shaker]

Hope has a choice over whether to express his vile views or not. It doesn't damage him or hurt him in any way to live and let live.

I think it probably does, though; it probably causes the worst imaginable damage and hurt in the world today - that of being offended.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Rose,

Or that society is scapegoating Christians who don't pick up on the cues to conform to what the thought  on things, generally are.

Can you open that up for me a little, scapegoating Christians, cues to conform, for me and correct me if I am wrong, and I will be apologising but all I have set out to show is the damage homophobic thought can have.

I certainly don't want to pick on Hope or Spud or anyone who shows homophobic thought, although sometimes a post can set the pulse racing and I do let loose, homophobic thought has to be highlighted, it causes great harm.

Homophobic thought is not some will o the wisp, it is a very powerful force, it leads to destruction of human life and I would add to any Christian reading this, remember the early Christians who were put to death for being different.

Gonnagle.

[Bubbles]

Could you point to some posts which seem to say that to you?

Yes

Posts 530 where Hope is defending his POV and the subsequent posts after it.

Some people have a one true way reaction to opinions that differ.

Live and let live, to me anyway,  means in part accepting different POV's especially when you don't agree with them.

The general impression I get us that instead of " live at let live" it's more " shut the **** up"

That's the reaction I see to Hope's post.

"Live and let live"  is about getting on with those that differ.

I don't see any evidence in Hopes posts that in real life, opinions aside, he doesn't live and let live.

You can live and let live, while disagreeing a lot with someone.

I think it comes down to how you read and understand someone's posts.

I would have an issue with Hopes post if I thought he was advocating " interfering " with others in the real world.

My reading is its just his opinions based on his beliefs.