Author Topic: Children and religion  (Read 8481 times)

floo

  • Guest
Children and religion
« on: April 16, 2016, 12:17:19 PM »
There has been some discussion about children and religion on another thread, which is off topic, so I thought I would start a new one.

I am of the opinion that whilst parents can share their beliefs with their children, they should allow them to make up their own minds on the topic, as there is no evidence to support any religious belief system.

As I have said before, my husband and I felt very strongly about letting our children decide for themselves about religion, we did not force our lack of belief on them. We knew how damaging it was to us that our childhoods had been spoilt by the 'you must be 'saved', or burn in hell', abusive dogma. >:(

Our daughters are moderate, non Biblical literalist Christians, and jolly decent people, of whom we are very proud. :) The daughters, who have children, are bringing them up the same way and letting them decide for themselves.


Owlswing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6945
Re: Children and religion
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2016, 10:10:46 PM »

There has been some discussion about children and religion on another thread, which is off topic, so I thought I would start a new one.

I am of the opinion that whilst parents can share their beliefs with their children, they should allow them to make up their own minds on the topic, as there is no evidence to support any religious belief system.

As I have said before, my husband and I felt very strongly about letting our children decide for themselves about religion, we did not force our lack of belief on them. We knew how damaging it was to us that our childhoods had been spoilt by the 'you must be 'saved', or burn in hell', abusive dogma. >:(

Our daughters are moderate, non Biblical literalist Christians, and jolly decent people, of whom we are very proud. :) The daughters, who have children, are bringing them up the same way and letting them decide for themselves.

I am not at all sure that the primary target of your remarks, Christianity, as a whole, deserves the description "child abuse" to be applied to the teaching of that religion, BUT, as one instance, I do believe that the Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs regarding medical intervention most assuredly do deserve said description.

A child will grow to adulthoiod and wisdom and, should it wish to, can dump the beliefs of its parents, as you, Floo, did.

A child denied a blood transfusion does not have that ability.

Extreme as I know it is I believe that if a JW family refuse medical treatment and the child dies, criminal charges should be brought.   
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Brownie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3858
  • Faith evolves
Re: Children and religion
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2016, 10:25:24 PM »
We have discussed this so often, Owlswing and floo.  I'm glad you came up with something new Owlswing and note we have no JWs on this forum - I have absolutely nothing against them in this free society in which we live, except what you say about children and blood transfusions and I believe the law takes care of that when it comes up in A&E.

Other than that, I've nothing to say that I haven't said before on previous threads.
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

Owlswing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6945
Re: Children and religion
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2016, 12:14:58 AM »

I'm glad you came up with something new Owlswing and note we have no JWs on this forum - I have absolutely nothing against them in this free society in which we live, except what you say about children and blood transfusions and I believe the law takes care of that when it comes up in A&E.


Unfortunately this may not be the case. If the A & E staff have such a dilemma (hippocratic oath v religious belief) it, i f I remember correctly - and I will be happy if someone corrects me - usually has to be the courts that decides the outcome and - again I will be happy if someone corrects me - I am not sure that the courts always decide in favour of the medical people's position.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Owlswing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6945
Re: Children and religion
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2016, 12:25:51 AM »

Unfortunately this may not be the case. If the A & E staff have such a dilemma (hippocratic oath v religious belief) it, i f I remember correctly - and I will be happy if someone corrects me - usually has to be the courts that decides the outcome and - again I will be happy if someone corrects me - I am not sure that the courts always decide in favour of the medical people's position.


Further to the above:

http://www.uhs.nhs.uk/HealthProfessionals/Clinical-law-updates/Adults-who-refuse-blood-transfusion-in-emergency-circumstances.aspx

http://www.uhs.nhs.uk/HealthProfessionals/Clinical-law-updates/Young-person-refusing-blood-transfusion.aspx

The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Brownie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3858
  • Faith evolves
Re: Children and religion
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2016, 03:10:36 AM »
I read both with interest Owlswing, thank you.  So it seems a ''young person'' can be forced to have a blood transfusion against their express wishes in order to save their life.  I didn't know that and assumed that anyone over 16 could decide for themselves what medical treatment they would accept and not accept.
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

Owlswing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6945
Re: Children and religion
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2016, 04:26:04 AM »

I read both with interest Owlswing, thank you.  So it seems a ''young person'' can be forced to have a blood transfusion against their express wishes in order to save their life.  I didn't know that and assumed that anyone over 16 could decide for themselves what medical treatment they would accept and not accept.


I couldn't find the article but I seem to remember a couple of cases where teenage JW's wishes have been overruled on the grounds of undue or unacceptable pressure from parents or church leaders being applied or where their 'maturity' has been called into question.

I also seem to remember that in America there is a legal precedent that allows a court to give, I think the expression is, 'discretionary adulthood' to persons under the American legal age of maturity.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

floo

  • Guest
Re: Children and religion
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2016, 08:13:50 AM »
I think the JW cult is evil! >:(

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25569
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: Children and religion
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2016, 08:42:29 AM »
I am of the opinion that whilst parents can share their beliefs with their children, they should allow them to make up their own minds on the topic, as there is no evidence to support any religious belief system.
This is not only the opinion of pretty well all Christian parents (if not parents of other religions - but there are other reasons for this), it also mirrors the instructions that Christ gave in the first place.  The famous saying that God has no grand-children sums this up very well. 

Previously, I mentioned that this doesn't seem to apply to other religions since it seems that many of them believe that if you are born in a certain part of the world or into a 'believing' family you are automatically a Muslim/Sikh/Hindu/etc.  Ironically, within the Christian context, whilst this was very likely true of some Christian denominations in the past (and still today in respect to one particular denomination), more recently it has been the other wayy round - the child has assumed their religious status from their parents - hence the huge number of people who tick 'Christian' on a census or survey form - because they think that growing up in a Christian family (or even nation) makes them a Christian.

Quote
As I have said before, my husband and I felt very strongly about letting our children decide for themselves about religion, we did not force our lack of belief on them. We knew how damaging it was to us that our childhoods had been spoilt by the 'you must be 'saved', or burn in hell', abusive dogma. >:(
I suppose that I was like your children, brought up in a Christian family where it was made exceedingly clear (by a clergyman of all people! ;)) that once we reached a point in our lives when we could think for ourselves (and I get the feeling that Mum and Dad regarded that as about 7 years old) we couldn't hang on their spiritual coat-tails, but had to make up our own minds.  In fact, with the possible exception of one family I know here in S. Wales, I think that you are the only person I know who wasn't brought up in that understanding, Floo.

Obviously, most Christian parents will bring theiur children up to at least understand the idea of salvation and their need of it, and I don't see anything wrong with it - it is certainly not abusive in any way at all.  We all know, once we are even fairly young, that we do things wrong and that we need to sek forgiveness and 'salvation' even if that is only reconciliation with the person we have wronged.

Quote
Our daughters are moderate, non Biblical literalist Christians, and jolly decent people, of whom we are very proud. :) The daughters, who have children, are bringing them up the same way and letting them decide for themselves.
What, may I ask, is a 'non Biblical literalist Christian', Floo?  Are you saying that they are evangelicals, are they 'high', as opposed to 'low' from a theological perspective; or are you saying that they don't believe anything that the Bible says?
« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 05:49:10 PM by Hope »
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Owlswing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6945
Re: Children and religion
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2016, 08:42:41 AM »

I think the JW cult is evil! >:(


In what specific ways? Or is your condemnation all-embracing of the JW belief.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25569
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: Children and religion
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2016, 05:49:55 PM »
I think the JW cult is evil! >:(
Evil? or just wrong?  If the former, in what way?
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Owlswing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6945
Re: Children and religion
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2016, 05:56:33 PM »

Evil? or just wrong?  If the former, in what way?


Their willingness to allow their childtren to die un-necessarily?

Seems a good definition of evil to me. The god that they worship must be just as evil to allow them to do so.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Brownie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3858
  • Faith evolves
Re: Children and religion
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2016, 07:29:59 PM »
The blood issue is a very big one for us and when a case gets into the papers, or is portrayed in drama on TV, it hits home.  However most of us go through life without ever having a blood transfusion and Jehovah's Witnesses are the same.  I doubt if they dwell on it that much, no doubt they pray that they or their loved ones never need one and leave it up to God.

It all seems very strange to us but all religions are odd to the outsider.  JWs would undoubtedly say there is more to them that refusing blood products.  That's certainly true - their attitude towards higher education is one but maybe that's for another thread.
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

Rhiannon

  • Guest
Re: Children and religion
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2016, 08:05:02 PM »
My dad's brother and his wife are JWs. They are somewhat eccentric to say the least and the JWs give them a sense of community and acceptance outside of our family. I'm not knocking it.

Leonard James

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12443
Re: Children and religion
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2016, 08:07:46 PM »
Religion can cause otherwise intelligent people to act like morons.

Rhiannon

  • Guest
Re: Children and religion
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2016, 08:09:57 PM »
So can being a football supporter.

Leonard James

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12443
Re: Children and religion
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2016, 08:12:45 PM »
So can being a football supporter.

I don't think so. Intelligent supporters of any sport conduct themselves intelligently. Those supporters that don't are morons anyway!  :)

Rhiannon

  • Guest
Re: Children and religion
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2016, 08:16:24 PM »
No, Lennie, football supporters will often act out of character in the heat of the moment or to gain an edge for their team. Away from football they will be perfectly reasonable.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64322
Re: Children and religion
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2016, 08:46:25 PM »
Religion can cause otherwise intelligent people to act like morons.
How does something that is a creation of humans cause this? Surely it's just that intelligent people often act like morons.

Leonard James

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12443
Re: Children and religion
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2016, 07:07:58 AM »
No, Lennie, football supporters will often act out of character in the heat of the moment or to gain an edge for their team. Away from football they will be perfectly reasonable.

I take your word on that because I know nothing about football supporters. I find it rather sad.

Leonard James

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12443
Re: Children and religion
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2016, 07:10:45 AM »
How does something that is a creation of humans cause this? Surely it's just that intelligent people often act like morons.

Yes, I suppose so. It is unfortunate that religion can cause it.

Bubbles

  • Guest
Re: Children and religion
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2016, 07:29:11 AM »
There are alternatives to blood nowadays, I think.

Also if it is taken out of the hands of the Jehovah Witness parents, they are not held to blame in their community, so in some ways could be a bit of a relief.

Children naturally join in the parents community, so you can't really bring them up differently or seperately.

Some disapprove of children joining a religious community but the alternative is worse.
Excluding a child from parts of your life in an attempt not to teach them religion, strikes me as cruel.





Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25569
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: Children and religion
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2016, 05:48:11 PM »
Religion can cause otherwise intelligent people to act like morons.
It can also cause otherwise intelligent - as well as those less endowed with said intelligence - to act as incredibly idiotic and self-ignoring people in attempts to save the lives of fellow human beings.

Len, its time you stopped stereotyping people of faith, because your claim can be equally applied to those with no religious belief.  The important word in your post is 'can'; this doesn't mean 'does'.
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Brownie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3858
  • Faith evolves
Re: Children and religion
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2016, 06:36:09 PM »
[quote author=Rose link=topic=11903.msg606930#msg606930 date=146096095
Children naturally join in the parents community, so you can't really bring them up differently or seperately.

Some disapprove of children joining a religious community but the alternative is worse.
Excluding a child from parts of your life in an attempt not to teach them religion, strikes me as cruel.
[/quote]

I'd never thought of it in that way before Rose, probably because it isn't something that has affected me personally.  However you are right, it would be cruel to exclude children and have a 'secret' bit of life where they aren't welcome.   I daresay the best solution to that is to let them join in with age-appropriate activities if they want to (most churches have those), and not force them to do so if they aren't interested.
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

Leonard James

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12443
Re: Children and religion
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2016, 06:56:45 PM »
It can also cause otherwise intelligent - as well as those less endowed with said intelligence - to act as incredibly idiotic and self-ignoring people in attempts to save the lives of fellow human beings.

Len, its time you stopped stereotyping people of faith, because your claim can be equally applied to those with no religious belief.  The important word in your post is 'can'; this doesn't mean 'does'.

True ... but I just want to point out that religious beliefs can prompt some people to treat others cruelly, which they otherwise wouldn't have done. I speak from experience having been on the receiving end.