When did the Christian mission...

[Sassy]

Jesus might have been an ok bloke, although he had faults and failings like the rest of us, but as there is NOTHING good about the deeds attributed to god, hopefully he was not like his 'father'.

What faults and failings did he have. Plural so more than one of each.

As for 'GOOD' what is good? God created man... God created world.. all good.
Who really turned man evil and caused the world to decay?
MAN Why was that? Because Eve believed God was bad that he was keeping something good from them when he wanted what was really best and good for them.
Hence like yourself believed the worse and ended up getting what she sowed.

You have no reason or right to call God evil. You never created man or the world. You have no understanding of Gods power or reality about man and the world.

Till you can reason you are like Eve out for yourself and unable to make an argument based on sound knowledge and judgement. When you have some then let us know.

[floo]

What faults and failings did he have. Plural so more than one of each.

As for 'GOOD' what is good? God created man... God created world.. all good.
Who really turned man evil and caused the world to decay?
MAN Why was that? Because Eve believed God was bad that he was keeping something good from them when he wanted what was really best and good for them.
Hence like yourself believed the worse and ended up getting what she sowed.

You have no reason or right to call God evil. You never created man or the world. You have no understanding of Gods power or reality about man and the world.

Till you can reason you are like Eve out for yourself and unable to make an argument based on sound knowledge and judgement. When you have some then let us know.

I think any decent person would regard the deeds attributed to god as evil. If the creation myth had any credence it appears it created humans for its own sick enjoyment.

As for Jesus, that guy was hardly perfect. As I have mentioned before, cursing a fig tree for having no figs when out of season, was stupid, trashing the Temple was vandalism, and frightening the pigs over a cliff when playing crazy hocus pocus, was WRONG and not to his credit. Expecting people to leave their responsibilities and follow him was not right and showed he was very up himself. Jesus probably had some charisma, which encouraged people to follow him, but he was no kind of deity, imo.

[Hope]

I think any decent person would regard the deeds attributed to god as evil. If the creation myth had any credence it appears it created humans for its own sick enjoyment.

So, protecting a given group of people from the violence of others is evil?  Rescuing same group of people from exploitation is evil?  Providing same group of people with sustenance whilst they wandered around the desert is evil?  I could go on.

As for Jesus, that guy was hardly perfect. As I have mentioned before, cursing a fig tree for having no figs when out of season, was stupid, ...

and was a illustration of a more profound teaching.

... trashing the Temple was vandalism, ...

no more so than the vandalism that the Jewish religious leaders had been committing for centuries by allowing the money changers and sacrifical animal sellers to set up in the one part of the Temple precinct that was meant to be open to non-Jews, thus stopping them from sharing in the worship of the Jewish God had they wanted to.

... and frightening the pigs over a cliff when playing crazy hocus pocus, was WRONG and not to his credit.

Do you actually know that this was a case of mental ill-health, rather than anything potentially more serious?  No.  You simply don't like to accept that Jesus wasn't something more than merely human.

Expecting people to leave their responsibilities and follow him was not right and showed he was very up himself. Jesus probably had some charisma, which encouraged people to follow him, but he was no kind of deity, imo.

So, are you suggesting that no-one ought to have to work away from home?  That no-one should  look to better themselves by moving out of their familial form of work (rather like the caste system that still applies in many parts of India)?  Are you suggesting that no-one should be sent abroad to serve the national interest whilst there, or choose to go abroad in order to find work?

I'm afraid that your opinion in this area seems to run massively counter to normal life, Floo.

[jeremyp]

Until very recently, it was the religious - clergy, imams, monks & nuns, etc. - who were the leaders in scientific investigation, LJ.  Perhaps you would rather that no scientific development had taken place until atheism reared its head.

I'll give you Georges Lemaître and Gregor Mendel. Who else?

[jeremyp]

The Hellenistic influence came after the faith had been in existence for a number of years and was never all-embracing.

Nope. It was there right from the beginning. Jesus and his followers grew up in a Hellenistic society.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

So, protecting a given group of people from the violence of others is evil?  Rescuing same group of people from exploitation is evil?  Providing same group of people with sustenance whilst they wandered around the desert is evil?  I could go on.

Commanding Genocide?

[jeremyp]

So, protecting a given group of people from the violence of others is evil?  Rescuing same group of people from exploitation is evil?  Providing same group of people with sustenance whilst they wandered around the desert is evil?  I could go on.

You forgot the first part of that story. You know: the bit where God inflicted a number of increasingly nasty plagues on the Egyptians culminating in killing every first born male after he had already won the argument.

[Hope]

You forgot the first part of that story. You know: the bit where God inflicted a number of increasingly nasty plagues on the Egyptians culminating in killing every first born male after he had already won the argument.

Yet it was only after he had inflicted this final one that Pharoah was willing to release the hebrews - and even then, they had to flee under cover of darkness.

I seem to remember that a certain world war continued for about a year after the 'argument had been won'.

[Hope]

Nope. It was there right from the beginning. Jesus and his followers grew up in a Hellenistic society.

I would disagree, jeremy.  Hellenism may have been prevalent across the Mediateranean by that stage, but one of the things that many Roamns seem to have found odd about the Jews was the fact that thay largely avoided it.  The Hellenistic influence only really began to impact on the faith with the arrival of Saul/Paul, and even then it eas tempered by a strong Jewish understanding.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

Yet it was only after he had inflicted this final one that Pharoah was willing to release the hebrews - and even then, they had to flee under cover of darkness.

I seem to remember that a certain world war continued for about a year after the 'argument had been won'.

Couldn't he have simply changed the Pharaoh's mind without releasing plague's willy-nilly?

[Shaker]

Not sure that my opinions in regard to either run particularly counter to real life, Shakes. Remember that real life is somewhat larger than Western society.

I'm sure that in my corner of Western society your views are at odds with most of the population in both regards. In fact if you look at the evidence of what people think and believe - or don't believe - as provided by surveys and opinion polls and so forth that remains the case pretty well across the West.

[Nearly Sane]

Couldn't he have simply changed the Pharaoh's mind without releasing plague's willy-nilly?

It was changing Pharoah's mind, or rather the hardening of his heart that caused most of the problems. Though why harden his heart and then kill babies, who knows, other than a penchant for mass slaughter. 

[Hope]

I'll give you Georges Lemaître and Gregor Mendel. Who else?

Robert Grosseteste, Nicole Oresme, Otto Brunfels, William Turner, Francis Bacon, Laurentius Paulinus Gothus, Seth Ward - a few from before the 18th century; Stephen Hales, John Michell, Maria Agnesi - a few from the 18th century; Samuel Vince, William Kirby, William Buckland, Edward Hitchcock, Adam Sedgewick, Temple Chevalier, Robert Main, Gregor Mendel - a few from the 19th century; William Dallinger, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, and Lemaitre as you've already mentioned - from the 20th Century; Alberto Dou Mas de Xaxàs, Noella Marcellino, Alister McGrath, Guy Consolmagno, George Coyne, Michel Heller, John Polkinghorne - a few still alive (I think).

Note that this is just a selection of priest/nun/monk scientists who have been leaders in their fields. 

[Hope]

I'm sure that in my corner of Western society your views are at odds with most of the population in both regards. In fact if you look at the evidence of what people think and believe - or don't believe - as provided by surveys and opinion polls and so forth that remains the case pretty well across the West.

But, if all you do is look at Western society (which is, admittedly, a somewhat generalised term anyway), you are not looking at real life for the majority of the global population.  As I've noted before, there are some areas of Western society that I believe are far in advance of non-Western societies, but there are also areas where it lags equally far behind non-Western societies.

[Shaker]

But, if all you do is look at Western society

Which is the one I live in. I've been to others and know a good many people from other societies, but don't make a point of bragging about it. When you talk about real life I'd have thought it obvious that people are going to base their views on their real lives which are lived in specific places at specific times in cultures with specific mores. You can discuss other places out of academic interest, I suppose, but if you don't live there it's not your life.

As I've noted before, there are some areas of Western society that I believe are far in advance of non-Western societies

Embrace of diversity, tolerance of various minority groups, emphasis on across-the-board equality being just some of those areas.

[Sassy]

I think any decent person would regard the deeds attributed to god as evil. If the creation myth had any credence it appears it created humans for its own sick enjoyment.

As for Jesus, that guy was hardly perfect. As I have mentioned before, cursing a fig tree for having no figs when out of season, was stupid, trashing the Temple was vandalism, and frightening the pigs over a cliff when playing crazy hocus pocus, was WRONG and not to his credit. Expecting people to leave their responsibilities and follow him was not right and showed he was very up himself. Jesus probably had some charisma, which encouraged people to follow him, but he was no kind of deity, imo.

What you write makes no sense.
How did the fig tree refuse? It isn't a person has no soul. So explain what happened.
As for God, what is this 'decent' thing. All you show the scholars especially the worldly scholars is that you have no respect for authority or anyone who is higher than yourself in the grand scheme of things. A good child obeys their parents but a bad child rebels. Some people are not good at judging situations.
They have no idea of the reality of co-existence.

War has been around you for years and yet you understand nothing at all...

[jeremyp]

Yet it was only after he had inflicted this final one that Pharoah was willing to release the hebrews - and even then, they had to flee under cover of darkness.

False. You need to occasionally read your own holy book. I believe this isn't the first time you have been caught out by your own scriptures.

In Exodus 11 we learn that God deliberately hardened Pharaoh's heart. In Exodus 12 we learn that Pharaoh actually drove the Israelites out.

Oops. You seem to be good at getting the basics of your own religious stories wrong.

I seem to remember that a certain world war continued for about a year after the 'argument had been won'.

So what?

As an off topic point, which World War are you talking about?

[jeremyp]

I would disagree, jeremy. 

You would be wrong.

Hellenism may have been prevalent across the Mediateranean by that stage, but one of the things that many Roamns seem to have found odd about the Jews was the fact that thay largely avoided it.

This is totally untrue. Palestine had under Hellenistic control since around 332BCE when Alexander conquered it. Why do you think the Septuagint was written? Clue: quite a lot of Jews could read Greek, but not Hebrew.

Why do you think the New Testament is written exclusively in Greek?

You seriously have no idea do you?

[Ricky Spanish]

Dear Farmer,

I follow yours posts and I notice you are like a lawyer, you hardly ever ask a question that you don't know the answer to already, so tell me about this African influence, I can't remember reading about a African influence in Bamber Gasmeters wonderful book The Christians, jog my memory, enlighten me.

I was thinking of the Early Church fathers and about the influence of the ones from North Africa on Church regulations.



Perhaps I should condense my opening salvo to thus:

Why Did Christianity Succeed?   

After Jesus' execution a group of his followers, illiterate Jewish peasants from the backwoods of rural Palestine, began to spread the word about the approaching "Kingdom of God" and how the way to salvation was to follow Jesus' teachings because he had been resurrected according to scripture, (the Jewish book, not the gospels. the gospels hadn't been invented yet,) and as the suffering servant of God had promised to appear once again to herald the coming kingdom on this earth and only allow those who understood his teaching into this coming paradise.

How did this notion spread so rapidly and thoroughly to become a major religion in the ancient Mediterranean?

How did it eventually after 300 odd years, take over the entire Roman Empire and ultimately becoming the most powerful religious force in the Western World of its day?

In what way can we explain the success of Christianity?

[Ricky Spanish]

Mods can you delete permanently any post that references homosexuality in this thread. This is not what it is about!!

[Gordon]

Mods can you delete permanently any post that references homosexuality in this thread. This is not what it is about!!

Moderator:

Fair point Thrud, so I'll lock it while we have a look. While I'm at it I'll move this thread to the Christian Topic.

Update: I've removed the most obvious examples to the Mod Board, so I'll unlock and move this thread to the Christian Topic.

[Khatru]

You have no reason or right to call God evil.

Until you can actually demonstrate the existence of your god then your ju-ju isn't much different to any other superstitious mumbo jumbo.

[Hope]

Which is the one I live in. I've been to others and know a good many people from other societies, but don't make a point of bragging about it. When you talk about real life I'd have thought it obvious that people are going to base their views on their real lives which are lived in specific places at specific times in cultures with specific mores. You can discuss other places out of academic interest, I suppose, but if you don't live there it's not your life.

Unfortunately for you, Shakes, you live in an increasingly global society, in which competing values and ideas exist, and intrdependence on other parts of that global population are day-by-day occurrences

Embrace of diversity, tolerance of various minority groups, emphasis on across-the-board equality being just some of those areas.

OK, 'diversity and tolerance of various minority groups. I notice the use of 'various' - very telling.  'Emphasis on across-the-board equality ...', provided that you aren't an immigrant, Black/Hispanic/Native American, a Muslim, a Communist (historically), etc., [in the USA], Aborigine or Maori in Australia and New Zealand, etc.  Remember that one of the key issues in our own EU referendum is over immigration.

These claims all sound excellent as sound-bites, but in reality they are often being observed in the breach - and by Governments and authorities no less than the public at large.

Now, before you run off on one of your accusations that I prefer non-developed nation societies, I will reiterate again that I am very privileged to live in the society in which I live, but also reiterate that it, like just about every aspect of life across the world, needs to improve.  For instance, we like to claim that we have the best healthcare service in the world, yet it is creaking and groaning under the strain of an ever more elderly population and failures to address issues such as mental health and social care,the latter of which goes hand in hand with healthcare - other than in government and local authority spheres.  I also live in a society were young people seem increasingly to treat their parents and grandparents with at best disrespect, and at worst sheer abusiveness; a society where people are increasingly trying to disprove John Donne's maxim that 'no man is an island, entire of itself, ...'.

In closing, my view is that 'society' - be that Western, Eastern, Northern or Southern - is flawed and broken.  Some soceties are more flawed than others, some are more broken than others.

[Shaker]

OK, 'diversity and tolerance of various minority groups. I notice the use of 'various' - very telling.

Is it? Why?

[Hope]

Perhaps I should condense my opening salvo to thus:

Why Did Christianity Succeed?   

After Jesus' execution a group of his followers, illiterate Jewish peasants from the backwoods of rural Palestine, began to spread the word about the approaching "Kingdom of God" and how the way to salvation was to follow Jesus' teachings because he had been resurrected according to scripture, (the Jewish book, not the gospels. the gospels hadn't been invented yet,) and as the suffering servant of God had promised to appear once again to herald the coming kingdom on this earth and only allow those who understood his teaching into this coming paradise.

OK, lets start to analyse that.  For starters, were the followers illiterate?  Probably not as Jewish society - even in the 1st Century AD - put a high value on basic education.  Most lads (though, agreed, not necessarily girls) would be educated up to what we would regard as the equivalent of Years 5/6. (10-11 year olds)  They would then go into vocational work, such as carpentry, agriculture, fishing, leatherwork, etc. - or 'further education' to prepare to be clerks, rabbis, leaders, etc.

The rest of the 2nd paragraph isn't perfect, but I'll leave it as vaguely representative.

How did this notion spread so rapidly and thoroughly to become a major religion in the ancient Mediterranean?

Partly because it wasn't imposed from the top of society but grew from the bottom up.  For much of those first 300 years, it was the 'preserve' of the slaves, the servants, the working class and towards the end of that period, the lower eschelons of the army.

How did it eventually after 300 odd years, take over the entire Roman Empire and ultimately becoming the most powerful religious force in the Western World of its day?

As it came t have more and more influence in the army (see above), so the authorities and military leadership came to fear that it might initiate a mutiny by the soldiery.

In what way can we explain the success of Christianity?

The most obvious is that it offered hope to the downtrodden, the disenfranchised and the marginalised.  But, at the same time, it was for all of humanity.  Yes, the church in the 500s and after botched this message in greater or lesser manner, but the underlying truths still held strong, even if amongst the less powerful, the marginalised and the disenfranchised.